Episode 107: Are CMOs set up to fail?

Speaker 1  00:02 

You welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode. 

 

Speaker 2  00:16 

Hello everybody, and welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. And you know, sometimes it can seem like chief marketing officers are being set up to fail. They are the four guys or the four girls of the entire C suite. That's how it seems to some people in some marketing departments. But is it true? Well, to answer this particularly prickly question, we have some real experts. We have Robert Stevens, who is managing director of Optic Solutions, Sandrine Desbarbieux-Lloyd, who is global CMO of Jabra, and Kamila Miller, who is fractional marketing director and PhD researcher. How are you guys?

Sandrine, you have pulled the short straw because you are currently a global CMO, I'm going to ask you first about the central premise of this question. Do you think there is some truth in the way that we treat CMOS, the way we handle them, way we employ them, and what we expect of them, that in some cases, if not designed well, CMOs positions can be set up to fail, 

 

Speaker 4  01:39 

yes and no and lovely to talk to you. Ben, today, I think CMOs are not necessarily set up to fail, and I think their role in the organization is really critical. I think it's the definition of the CMO that has changed. So I think businesses want CMOS, who are extremely commercial, who can prove the added value of marketing on the bottom line, that will understand how to measure their activities, get the organization to buy into that measurement, so then we can together invest in the business. And I think this is really the key, is measurement collaboration and really thinking commercially as if it was your own business awareness and general brands marketing is still very relevant. But being able to understand the full funnel, being able to understand how all marketing activity actually generates revenue and helps increase profitability, is key to to the role it is, it 

 

Speaker 2  02:56 

is, but if you actually look at the turnover rate, Robert Stevens of CMOs, in comparison to other C suite jobs, and indeed, the persistent rumors we hear as marketers about the death or the impending death of the CMO role itself, there's something going on, isn't there? 

 

Speaker 3  03:17 

Yeah, I think looking at the data, which was something that first came to our attention a few months ago. CMOs are potentially, you know, twice, if not three times, more likely to lose their seat in the C suite. Their tenure is, you know, between a quarter and a third of that of their other C suite members. So, you know what that translates to in sort of, you know, day to day terms, is that a CMO can really only rely upon maybe two to three year term in the C Suites, which then drives a whole other set of kind of behaviors, which I think, you know, sandrines answer was absolutely spot on in terms of, what does the organization want and need, in terms of a perfect CMO, but the reality in terms of what we then variance day to day is a different matter. 

 

Speaker 2  04:16 

Kamila, their tenure is brutal and short by all accounts, compared to everybody else on the C suite, 

 

Speaker 5  04:24 

Indeed, indeed. And from the research and actually practitioner perspective, I can see this quite interesting pattern. We see that the marketing directors CMOs are quite often expected to deliver without actually being involved in defining what to deliver, and that is causing the pressure on them. It caused them, I would say, stress, because if you have to deliver something, but you really don't know what to deliver, it's impossible situation for you as a marketing director, CMO, you. Are kind of set up to fail at the beginning of the journey. So from the CMO perspective, we need to make sure that they know what is expected from them so they can actually do this. 

 

Speaker 2  05:15 

There's a general feeling not it's not in every role, of course, and many CMOS have a great, enjoyable role in a well structured role. But there seems to be a problem sondreen about a lack of clarity on expectations and a feeling that their position in the boardroom is somehow insecure compared to their peers, which actually drives a different behavior, as Robert Stevens was alluding to that is feeling that we're never quite safe or sound in our position, 

 

Speaker 4  05:45 

interesting, insecure. I'm not sure. I think you know, the CMO, alongside the Sales Director, is the representative of the customer, who is the most important person in your business, the customer. So I'd say marketing is probably one of the most important parts of the business, because it keeps the business in check with the customer. The job of the CMO is to make sure that people know about the customer, what the customer wants, what the customer doesn't know they want, what the customer does, where, how, when, and then on the back of that, then, like I said, you know, with really strong measurements, which can be helped with AI technology now, then you can demonstrate the value of marketing tangibly in collaboration with other parts of The business. So yeah, I'd say, customer, customer, customer. Do you think that 

 

Speaker 2  06:44 

all C suites and finance departments understand that, or is there a lack of understanding in not where you are currently, of course, but that you've experienced elsewhere in your career? 

 

Speaker 4  06:56 

Well, I'd say, you know the responsibilities on both parts, yeah, so I've always involved Finance Directors into the development of areas of marketing. So I'll give you a concrete example. When I was in my previous roles, I've delivered AI powered measurement, which, in collaboration with finance and in collaboration with sales, has enabled me to measure the added value of marketing, and I've not done this with marketing. In marketing, I've done this with other parts of the organization that are critical to buy into the measurement, to validating the measurement, to then reconcile that measurement with sales, direct revenue, rather than impressions, and all sorts of marketing only metrics that don't make any sense for the rest of the board. And this is the key, is aligning on the metrics, measuring those metrics together, aligning the rest of the organization, but I'd say always in collaboration with finance and sames. 

 

Speaker 2  08:08 

So Robert Stevens, some of the problems that you have cited from the research can be mitigated or even eliminated by very proactive CMOS, who actually go out there and prove their worth of themselves and the role to the business. 

 

Speaker 3  08:25 

Yeah, I think Sandrine's response there was, was pretty much, again, textbook is absolutely spot on. So the first battleground is going to be within the boardroom for any CMO, and the CMO needs to be talking the language of the rest of the C suites. Once you've got that respect and understanding across the whole C suite, then we can become an effective team and move forward together. So absolutely, it's about ensuring that everybody within the C suite understands what we're doing, why we're doing it, what the order is in and also, how do we measure success, and what does that success look like? So I think it's absolutely critical. But again, if we come back to the data, that's probably not happening in most cases. So I don't know why that is, but I think you know that there are certainly examples of standout companies and organizations where they're getting this right and absolutely nailing it, but the majority seem not to be. There 

 

Speaker 2  09:27 

are some exemplars Kamila, yeah, but they're not the norm. 

 

Speaker 5  09:32 

This is quite interesting, because I completely agree with with both Robert and sandrina. We need to understand this commercial language, and we need to communicate and use that commercial language. And from the example perspective, example, a few interviews I already had with CMOS board directors, it's quite interesting, because marketers also need to be better in this internal marketing. We need to tap. People what we're doing, we have to champion our values through the case studies, performance narratives. And I'm not only talking about campaign performance because it's a short term type of campaign. I'm talking about this long term brand building exercises that are not so tangible, but so effective for the long term strategy. So marketing has to be reframed as not a cost center, but a source of the strategy value within the company, and that will help us improve what we're 

 

Speaker 2  10:37 

doing. Who does the reframing? Because, of course, if you speak to lots of finance people and FDS, they do see it as a cost center. They think marketers are expensive and sometimes quite troublesome to their business. How do you reframe it? Is it our job as marketers? 

 

Speaker 5  10:54 

I'm saying yes, but I'm hoping that Robert and Sandrine, we agree with that. It is our job. We have to do the marketing for the marketers. 

 

Speaker 3  11:04 

Yeah, 100% agree. I think, you know, we've spoken Kamila and I about this issue separately, and the research came from independent, sort of sources, but sort of compelled us to sort of have this conversation. And I think, more than anything, it's about that kind of consistency of language and and winning, like we said, winning the first battle, which is within the C suite, so making sure that everyone understands what marketing is there for, what we can do, what we can't do. Because otherwise, I think you know, potentially, you can be walking into situations where we're trying to pull rabbits out of hats on a daily basis, and that is not going to be a recipe for success. So I think you know, behind the boardroom and behind the CMO often sits agencies as well, and we see this too often, quite frankly, where you know, we know the right thing. We know what the strategy needs to be. We know what order in which to kind of put the recipe for success, if you want to call it that, but the time frames are too short, or the budgets aren't already there, or they've been spent elsewhere. And I think you can also sort of predict these situations and see them coming, which is quite frustrating when you're on the outside of it and you're not internally there with the C suite, but it's definitely a challenge, but it's something that we need to lead into. I think first and foremost, the responsibility sits with the CMO, looking for more ways to learn and upskill CIM. Members can register now for our upcoming member exclusive webinars. More details available@cim.co.uk 

 

12:33 

forward slash content. It's the 

 

Speaker 2  12:35 

it's the difference on Dream between short term rabbits, from hats ticks, if you like, to long term strategy and strategic success. And that's seems to be the first battle that markets are going to get away from being the guys who can suddenly, as Robert so neatly puts it, extract a rabbit from a top hat and instead deliver long term success, which takes a much longer term view and vision? 

 

Speaker 4  13:01 

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, it's true that you need to build your credibility as a CMO with the the board before you start asking for longer term projects. I'd say, you know, again, think of it as your business. If it was your business, what would you want to see? What are the biggest issues of businesses cash flow. So, you know, let's think like a business at the end of the day, if I can see revenue coming in at a profitable level, then I will be more inclined to invest in other things that are more long term. And that's how I see it. I think building credibility as a CMO is understanding, just like Robert says, talking the same language as the board. Because think about what does the board need? The board has to report to the shareholders. Do the shareholders want to know about brand awareness, or do they want to know about how much money they're going to make? And I think you know, going back to basics, and then you get credibility, and then you can start building other things together, and again, talking the same language and being collaborative. Don't build an empire of marketing around marketeers. We're the only one who know marketing. Actually, a lot of really clever people in your business will be able to help the agent of marketing. You just need to do it together. So it's not your marketing plan, it's our marketing 

 

Speaker 2  14:26 

plan. It's great advice. It's grand advice, Kamila and something that Sandrine has lived and breathed herself. But it's not easy for marketers to do that, because they're talking suddenly away from brand awareness in terms of spreadsheets to SDS and the like, 

 

Speaker 5  14:40 

indeed, but I do agree totally with all what Sandrine said. We need to build this integration between marketing and the score business agenda. Without that, we basically going to lose and I'm not talking about the marketing as a function. I'm talking about the business because my. Marketing has to regain the trust, and CMOS must show that they're not just a storytellers. It's wonderful. We have to tell the stories, but actually we have to show that we can think on the structuring level, that we can drive the business and we can drive the growth at the same time. Of course, we need to have a business leaders that they trust us and give the marketing the space and influence this this change. And that's what I can see already from the research that many companies that they build this collaboration. This is really important. The marketing function can do something, and they doing it not to show that marketing is better, but actually to work together with other business functions in the company. And thanks to that, the trust is built. Marketing is really effective and it works. It's so simple, yet very hard, because people are really afraid to say that the marketing directors, CMOs, they are really worried to go and stand in front of the board and CFOs and tell them, Listen, I'm going to do this and this, and it's going to cost me X amount of money. I will be successful, or I won't be successful, but if I'm not successful. There is a plan B, no, we're just telling the story using colorful PowerPoint presentations with a funny pictures. Why? Let's give people graphs and show them what we can do, and then add the nice and funny picture underneath. 

 

Speaker 2  16:39 

Again, it's grand advice, Robert, it's very good in sight, but there's a lot of Mayor culpa here. Let's just be honest for a second and look and be honest that the rest of the C suite aren't perfect either. Lots of marketers we speak to, I speak to privately, will tell me that they're expected to deliver on a strategy or the business's strategy, but are not given the freedom to input into that strategy, and sometimes more often than one would hope, are unaware of the strategy before they're asked to deliver it. So there's a problem with a lot of businesses as well in terms of the way they structure, but CMOs are simply asked to deliver somebody else's strategy without being given the chance to guide it. 

 

Speaker 3  17:26 

Yeah, this is a real prickly subject, right? As with society everywhere, there's going to be biases within the the boardroom. And you know, I think if you look at the data, often, the CMO may be one of the only, if not the only, female on that D suite. There's going to be a dynamic there, which needs to be sort of addressed and discussed openly. That's before we even start talking about the interdepartmental challenges as well. You know, we've talked a lot about the CFO now, the CFOs aren't, aren't monsters and but I think if you're not sort of on the same team. If you're not talking the same language, then the CFO quite rightly, won't trust the marketing budget or the spend or, you know, because I've talked to CFO separately as well, right? And what they're looking at is a huge spend, you know, there's some very, very big numbers in a lot of these CMOS budgets, right? But they can't see a direct line. So they're looking at things like, you know, the EBITDA, or the return on investment, on the campaign. So, and this comes back to not talking the same language, and I think, you know, first and foremost, CMOs need to to address that to be able to get a seat at the table. If you want to be part of the strategy and you want to have that strategic conversation, then you have to talk that language, right? So you have to, I think, as Sandrine was saying, you have to kind of prove your credibility, and you're not going to do that if you're coming back with your coloring department presentations that you've spent sort of days polishing, that that's not really what the CFO or anyone wants to see, right? What they're looking for is the impact. So if you reframe the conversation about strategic investments, and that's when people will start clicking and going, Oh, okay, I see it. Now, this isn't a spend department. This should be an income department, but we need to talk the language around strategic investments, longer term plans. You know, building brand takes years and years. You know, five years, 10 years, not three months, six months and and I think the C suite understand it, but we need to be better at talking the same language. 

 

Speaker 2  19:23 

Something that's more difficult when you're first coming in to an organization. I mean, you've recently moved so perhaps you're a good person to talk about this. You're first coming into an organization, a lot of the brief that newly hollied CMOs are given is, you know, go away and work out your brand strategy and come back to us. Meanwhile, the rest of the business of strategy is being developed somewhere else strikes me. You gotta crack that pretty early on if you're going to be a success. Yeah. 

 

Speaker 4  19:49 

Well, at jabha, I think it's really different. So I've joined an organization that really believes in marketing. My appointment is the proof point of this. Marketing is at. Center of the business. We are involved in the strategy. I'm involved in the strategy. In fact, we have a strategy all day tomorrow and yes, on the back of this, being very clear about the strategy of the business, then I will focus on what does that mean for marketing? But we're all super aligned that marketing is a revenue generator, an income team, and it's about what do we think is more important for the business together? So I will make sure that we prioritize together, what actions, what programs we're going to run first, which will help the overall business. Again, it's not about me, it's about the wider business. And if it was my business, how I'd think of it, 

 

Speaker 2  20:46 

there's an element of changing perceptions. Sometimes Kamila, even if it's quite early in the job, you have to sort of make yourself known and sometimes change perceptions in other departments. 

 

Speaker 5  20:58 

Absolutely, I would say that CMOS can't just ask for a seat. We need to prove that we belong to the boardroom by speaking the same language of growth and impact that is really important. And what my research already showed, marketing's influence is growing when it's grounded in this organizational goals powered by data, as we were saying, and actually underpinned by the confidence we can just come and demand. I'm a marketer. Give me what I want. We have to work hard to get into the position, but I like what Sandrine said, the marketing has to be in the middle of the organization. It's like the heart that is pumping the blood, and they deliver the insights, data about the customers, communication, what we do, how we do so it's not just a department, the coloring department, it is a full of strategy department, full of creative people that can get the data and actually change that into something really impactful. And I already can see this from the research perspective, and actually from the companies that I worked when the marketing was in the middle of the organization, the organization was growing. The problem actually starts when people don't understand the marketing, and that is also really important to educate not only customers, but actually the stakeholders. Why we doing what we doing for us as a marketers, the language is simple. We using the jargon. We know what that means, but for different people from the different department, is like, what they talking about. Just use the language that is understandable for people, but actually tell them. Tell them what we're doing. It's 

 

Speaker 4  22:56 

really interesting also what you've just said, Carina, because I, I do think, from my experience at Samsung and meta, that AI in particular is impacting sales and marketing first in our organizations, and it has for a while now. You know, I started working in machine learning eight, nine years ago with my team at Samsung. The opportunity here for the CMO is to educate the rest of the business also on how this new technology can be used efficiently to generate revenue and to actually generate efficiencies as well. And this is another role in the organization on top of being commercial and driving revenue, on top of protecting the brand and creating, you know, awareness of the business and and its products, I think there's a third element, which is really about, how do we apply new technology so that it can impact the bottom line of the business? 

 

Speaker 2  23:55 

It's a lot to expect one role, though, Robert Stevens, we're strategists. We're quasi sales people, and we're also educators, 

 

Speaker 3  24:05 

you know, and we recognize this, and this is why agencies exist, I believe, because even, you know, with a large organization where you might have a team of, you know, 20, 3040, or even more, marketeers, even when you have a team that size, they probably haven't got all of the bases covered in terms of the skills, the knowledge and the experience that they require. For us, over the past, I would say, maybe year we as an agency, we've evolved faster in that time that we've probably done ever before. You know, we've been around 2526 years as an agency. So that is, you know, the landscape and how AI is impacting agencies. So we're being more strategic, more commercial, more entrepreneurial, helping businesses, and particularly the marketing teams, really get into that value add area. And yes, it's also about having great ex. As well. You know, amazing kind of brand, amazing design, and with all the tools that are coming onto the market, we're able to kind of track all of this as well. So it is about sweeping away a lot of what's gone before, and improving that, and amplifying organizations to kind of be able to strive towards their goals. So it's an exciting time. I think it's a really challenging time, but I wouldn't say it's the death nail for the CMO. I think the CMO is probably going to be even more important than ever been for an organization's success. 

 

Speaker 2  25:28 

The technological advance gives an opportunity Kamila, because people don't understand it, and we're right at the front line. We're right at the coal face as marketers. Suddenly, everyone's interested in what we've got to 

 

Speaker 5  25:40 

say, yes, and most of people is afraid of technology, which for me, is quite interesting. We have to embrace that. We have to basically be better and use that effectively so the marketing can actually be even stronger as a department, because we are, like you said at the front line, we know what's happening, and we also know what the customers want. So you let's use the technology. Let's make sure that the technology is helping us, and let's help ourselves with the technology. So we are more effective. We are, we are better as a department, as people, but also show that actually, technology is not going to replace people. Okay, that is really important. I really like what Robert was saying about it, the agency's work. We have to work with people from the different agencies, the different perspective. Personally, I love technology, everything related to technology is, yes, it's great, but I can't imagine having a team just full of robots. I want people. I want this touch, this, this feeling, the hunch. I know it sounds not scientific at all, but in the marketing sometime, that's what it is sometimes that's what we want to do. We got this what if we tried something different? And that works. So let's work with technology, not against that. Let's educate ourselves. Let's use agencies, our teams, and that is going to help us a lot. 

 

Speaker 2  27:21 

Robert, we can be the bridge between the technology and the human, the bridge between the science and the instinct. 

 

Speaker 3  27:28 

Yeah, I think it's a great opportunity. One of the things that I've been talking to our customers about recently is that AI has effectively brought, you know, a digital version of a canvas and a set of oils and some paint brushes. But that doesn't mean, if you hand them over to somebody, that they'll then be Picasso, so you still need the brilliance that is the human mind in order to maximize the potential of these tools. Kamila, 

 

Speaker 2  27:58 

I am going to ask you a tough question. We've got the creme de la creme on here. You know Robert Stevens and Sandrine Deborah Lloyd, creme de la creme. They're people have done it. They've done it well. But you, as an academic who studies the sector can take a more, a wider view. We've heard today a lot about what marketers should be doing to bring themselves to the center of businesses. We've heard today what marketers should be doing to make sure they are involved at an early stage and a deep stage in business strategy, and we've heard a lot today about what marketers should be doing about marketing themselves to their own companies and to their stakeholders as a profession, and you can concentrate on the UK in general. Are cmo and marketers doing enough of those things? Are they doing a good enough job of those things according to you and your research? 

 

Speaker 5  28:58 

And now it's going to be very sad truth, but we don't. Unfortunately, not everyone I can. I can say that I managed to talk to wonderful marketers, and they are really successful. And we actually have examples of very successful people here in this podcast, but some of them, they're really afraid. They not telling others how good they are. And this is really, I want to say sad, but it's kind of sad, because marketing is is wonderful discipline. We do have a next generations of marketers, and they they're growing, but many marketers is kind of forgetting that they have to stand for themselves. They have to do something instead of that, they will change the job, or they will basically be so stressed that they can't deliver, and they will be fired. And this is really sad. And to see what we have to do, we have to, basically, as a marketers, start using this language, start building this opportunities, and not only deliver for the performance or just promotion, but show different departments that we planning to do something bigger. It's really hard job. It is extremely stressful, because, unfortunately, marketing is changing quicker than different departments. So what we were saying about educating others, that is also a problem, because you will still have someone who is like, they just spending money. The marketing has no value. You showed us the a few tactics. You You said that we will deliver XYZ. You didn't deliver within three months, you fired. And that is this really hard situation we are existing at the moment, but at the same time, I can see that many marketers are actually changing something. They talk about that problem. They already changing their perception, and 

 

31:13 

they evolving from this wired 

 

Speaker 5  31:17 

people sitting somewhere in the boardroom to people who are saying, Hold a second. Okay, I said, I will deliver. But the circumstances changed. Everything is different, and we getting this influence and confidence in ourselves, and that is really positive. More of that is is going to bring us a success. We're improving 

 

Speaker 2  31:38 

as an industry. Song green, but from a low base, there's a fear factor. Marketers are failing to stand up for themselves in general, not in specific, and they've got too quiet a voice. But Kamila Miller is saying to us that actually there is less fear than there was, that people are standing up for themselves a little bit more than they were, and their voice is becoming amplified, but it's a slow process, and we've got a long way to go with an industry. Is that fair? 

 

Speaker 4  32:12 

Yeah, I think it's fair. You know, when we think about CMOS, maybe, you know, we think of the old definition of a CMO, rather than a new definition of a commercial leader in the business. If I think about the issue, though, that you ask Kamila about, I do think it's all going back to data, if a marketeer, no matter which organization, no matter which customers, what products they have, if we go back to data and we find data that the board understands and again, going back to what Robert said, you know, we speak the same language, then nobody has to stand up for themselves. The data will do that by itself. So my advice to senior marketers out there is explore AI powered real time models to measure the impact of your marketing. Feed into those models. Build them with sales and finance. Feed into those models all the internal data you can find, all the external data you can find. Build those models so that they're owned by the organization and they're understood by the organization. From there, you have a place to justify any investment into marketing and then share those results on a regular basis with all your stakeholders. And I think that data will resolve the issues of having to do internal marketing, you just won't have any need for that. You'll just be able to prove the wealth of marketing. And it's not about you. It's about marketing investment, 

 

Speaker 2  33:52 

embrace technology. Robert Stevens, learn how to express the data and speak the language of the C suite, the language of finance, and you can crack the code. 

 

Speaker 3  34:05 

Yeah, I think Sandrine summed it up really well there. You know, for us, it's working with perhaps a CMO or senior marketer who hasn't kept up to date with the latest tools and technologies. Then this is again, where agencies can step in and provide that support. So we have data scientists here, we have aI specialists here, we've got strategists that we've got everyone that we can basically, you know, in the short term, get this done for you and support you and train you along the way. I think, you know, most important point there is about having that kind of commercial understanding and speaking the same language. I know we keep coming back to that point, but it's so important. The second point is to be a strategist as well, and not just a storyteller, not just keep going on about the brand or the logo again. You know, let's really be strategic in how we're communicating our message across. And I think thirdly, it's about building alliances across. The whole C suite and across the business and making sure that marketing is an integrated department, and everyone can see it as a revenue driver. 

 

Speaker 2  35:08 

Kamila, you had to give a fairly damn beat pricey, but you did have a whiff of optimism, and when we meet again in a couple of years, do you think that marketeers, CMOs and companies will have listened to this advice and acted on it. Yes, 

 

Speaker 5  35:27 

absolutely, because I already can see this. People are asking for the data. They want to show the data and organizations they are driven by the data. And we're not just talking about some data, it's deep insights from different departments. We talk a lot about the language communication we have to understand this commercial language. It's really hard sometimes for some people, because they like, oh, we just marketing department. But I like what Sandrine said about we work to grow the company. What if that was your company? You want to know how you doing, what you doing? Of course, the branding is important. Don't, please, don't get me wrong. But what is the revenue? What are you hitting? Your return of investments? That's what is really important. And if people don't know that, they can go to agencies or they can actually hire consultants to explain that to them so they educate themselves. And that's why it's really positive insight. I truly believe that the companies they will be hiring more CMOS because the we regain the trust, and that's what is happening. We are educating ourselves. We believe in the data, we believe in technologies, and we still a human being. So why not? 

 

Speaker 2  36:53 

Why not? Indeed. And an optimistic note to finish on, that's Kamila Miller, Sandrine, Deborah, Lloyd and Robert Steven, thank you all three of you, some brilliant insights today and some great advice, which our audience, I know will listen to it and will act on as we try to get more of a seat at the table as an industry than perhaps we have in general already. Thank you very much indeed, everyone for your time on the show today. Thank you for having me. Thank you. That's all the time we have for this episode of the CIM Marketing podcast. You can find detailed show notes and links to additional resources mentioned by our guests@cim.co.uk forward slash Content Hub, forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and find it helpful, please consider supporting the show by leaving a rating and review. It really helps grow our reach. The CIM Marketing Podcast is hosted by me Ben Walker, and produced for CIM by Brindley Walker, no relation, thanks again for tuning in to the CIM Marketing podcast.