Episode 108: The 2025 guide to authentic influencer partnerships

Speaker 1  00:02
You welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode.

Speaker 2  00:16
Hello everybody, and welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. You know, in this episode, we are diving into the evolving world of influencers and exploring what it truly means to be an influencer. In 2025 we're going to unpack the latest trends shaping the industry, examine public perceptions and offer practical and tactical advice for brands looking to harness influencer marketing as a growth engine, and to get these insights and these ideas, we've got two greats, one of them, a golden great returning to the show, Miss Kerry Gardiner, who is a contributor to CIM Content Hub and former catalyst young columnist of the year, and she's got A new job as marketing manager at medic checks. Keris, welcome back. How are

Speaker 3  01:04
you? I'm good. Thank you, Ben. Thank you so much for having me on I'm really excited for today's episode.

Speaker 2  01:09
It's great to have you back on the show. And last, but certainly not least, we've got Mr. Christian Sturt. Christian is managing director of influencer agency colossal influence. It's his debut on the show. We are delighted to have you on Christian. How are you?

Speaker 4  01:24
Thank you for having me. Ben, I'm good. Thank you. How are you

Speaker 2  01:28
great to be here as ever, great to be here and get your insights. You know, it's a fascinating area, and one that's so important to marketing. I'm going to start with you, Christian, you know, give us a quick outline. What are the big trends that are shaping the landscape? The influencer landscape in 2025

Speaker 4  01:45
that's a really interesting question. I mean, one of the scariest slash newest trends is the rise of AI in influencer marketing, something that all marketing departments are tentatively worried about, slash, very excited about, depending on where you sit on the fence. But in influencer marketing now, more than ever, there's the rise of the AI influencer, which, with the newest developments in Google, it's becoming slightly harder to tell who's genuine and who's an AI bot, and the worries around that, you know, making me worry about, you know, stuff in my job, and a lot of people worry about stuff in their jobs. But I think that's one of the things that a lot of people were talking about in influencer marketing in 2025 right now, are they any good, these AI bots? Yeah, as sometimes indistinguishable between human and AI sometimes very easy to tell depends on the coding that's been used. Ai still has its developmental issues in that it can't do everything you know, even to layman's eye, some people will be able to see it instantly. Something's not right. They might not even know about AI, but something's not right in this video, but AI is the worst it will ever be at this exact moment. And that's the most worrying thing about AI, is that even with all of its benefits at the moment, in terms of how sometimes indistinguishable it is between what's real and what's not, it's the worst it's ever going to be. And that's quite worrying.

Speaker 2  03:20
Imagine it is Kerry. So you worried by the advent of AI,

Speaker 3  03:24
I'm excited, as a, you know, somebody that works brand side in marketing, you know, the ability to be able to do more with the hours I've got to make things happen, is exciting. But I think from a consumer perspective, somebody that does consume social media on a very regular basis, it is scary, because I almost feel like, you know, my parents generation, where they can't tell something's fake. And it's like, we're at this point where sometimes you can't tell if it's AI or if it's not. And I think the content that's being produced at the minute, there's still kind of that line, and people are in the comments saying, Well, this is obviously AI, but there is definitely that worry we're at this now, when a year ago, we weren't anywhere close to this. Where are we going to be in a year's time?

Speaker 2  04:06
Would you encourage someone to get started as an influence still now, with the march of the robots, 100%

Speaker 3  04:13
100% I think we're naive to think the influencer industry is going anywhere, especially with new tools that are coming in. I think it's only going to win. Going to enhance what we are doing as an industry. But there's always going to be a place for real humanity, real connections, whether it's online or in person. And I think what the influencer world has to do is keep up with that and not let it become the thing that kills it.

Speaker 2  04:39
Do you agree with that Christian that there's a lot that humans can add value despite the Rise of the Machines? Yeah,

Speaker 4  04:46
I think you'll find that there actually becomes more of a split in that you'll get people who aren't too keen on AI for a number of reasons, whether or not it's the environmental impact that we could go into and talk about for ages, or the fact that. They don't like the fact that a computer has generated something people want real human connection. Influencer Marketing is built on real human connection and the value that a creator has over, say, a celebrity or traditional marketing on like a billboard or whatever, the value from influencer marketing comes from the core connection that a human holds with another human on the other side of the screen. And so what I actually think you'll find is that there becomes two very split divisions. You might even see that it's branded slightly differently, and that you find people are called Real influencers, and then there's AI influencers, and potentially both have their space. But I feel that you might find that there's a stronger connection with real influencers in inverted commas, the more AI comes to prominence. That's

Speaker 2  05:46
interesting, isn't it? Keris that being an influencer is about creating a new connection. Fundamentally, that's what it is, and there's going to be quite a lot of use cases Christian stirrt is suggesting where once people realize it's an AI that connection is undermined or lost completely. I

Speaker 3  06:05
think people do clock off when it comes to AI content quite easily, unless it's for entertainment value. You know, the sort of AI content I'm seeing at the minute is quite tongue in cheek and it is funny, but I think that's the value of it. It's, you know, being able to build something that humans can't replicate, for whatever reason, but when it comes to genuine human experience, whether it's somebody going through motherhood or somebody trying to find a new job, that human experience is what is important, and it is what people will connect to. And I don't think computers can replicate, that they might be able to bring some sort of elements to that based on what it's learning. But people believe real people, and I think that's only going to become stronger in a world where AI is everywhere.

Speaker 2  06:52
Influencers didn't even exist as a thing about two decades ago, so they went from zero to a boom. People have created massive, in some cases, very lucrative careers out of becoming influencers to a job that didn't exist, as I say, two decades ago, we now in a space where there's competition from digital influencers. AIS, is it still a high growth space for humans? Does it still offer an interesting and rewarding and potentially lucrative career path for people who are good at it. Or is it something that we should perhaps think, well, you know, we need to find new ways of doing marketing, because the machines are taking over.

Speaker 4  07:33
There are different ways to get into the industry now. So before a lot of creators Who've you know came to prominence, the big creators that we know now, most of them created general content, general entertainment content, vlog content. They sporadically move between different forms of content, which is a sort of big no no. Now, if you want to become a influencer in your field, what you can actually find is you can make good money if you're focusing on a specialist niche areas now are more valuable than ever, and you don't need to have millions and millions of subscribers to earn a really good living. If you've got micro, niche, pocketed area of your space and you're an expert in that space, then you can drive real value with brands by really picking your audience and becoming a specialist in the area. That's

Speaker 2  08:23
interesting. There's probably few people better qualified to speak about niche areas than Miss Gardner here, who is working in the medical sector. You know, this is so far removed Keris from the sort of stereotype of an influencer, which is a lady working in the fashion or fast fashion space, you know, showing off clothes or makeup or whatever. That's what people tend to think of. It comes into their mind's eye when they think of influencers. But you've working with influencers in very much a niche, as Christian describes it,

Speaker 3  08:53
definitely so started my role at many checks in January, and his bread and butter is at home and remote blood testing, which, on paper, you think, you know, relatively boring people do blood tests because they have a need to. But actually, there's a story behind it. There isn't just okay, well, I feel a bit tired. I'm going to do a blood test. It could be impacting someone's life in one way or another, and you find that anybody you speak to will have a common ground when it comes to that. So we hosted our very first influencer event back in March, and it was all targeted towards younger women in the 20s to 40s, you know, to really sort of understand if you are feeling off, there might be a reason to that. So we kind of threw influencer events on its head, and we actually put 20 creators in a room, and actually got them to take their blood whilst they were there, which I can't say I've seen before. So it's not just your traditional sort of wear some nice clothes that the brand have sent you. You know, we really wanted to kind of shake that up a little bit, and we had it as a wellness retreat. So you'd go do a yoga session, and then you would get your bloods taken afterwards. And it was actually a. Really nice story. And we had so many creators come to us and say, Actually, I have been feeling off, and I didn't know why, or I've been really struggling with my acne, and doctors haven't been able to help me traditionally. So there's always a story. And I think where you've got a story, you've got a market for influencers that's

Speaker 2  10:17
interesting, isn't it? Christian to your point, you said, if you can find a niche as a human influencer, you can do something a little bit different. You can build a successful brand on the back of it. Caris example, there is a perfect example of what you've been saying, yeah,

Speaker 4  10:32
100% and what I would say to influencers that are trying to break into a niche is two things. One, be prepared to have that as your niche for as long as you're an influencer, switching careers and brands, and you know your whole audience is not recommended, and it hasn't been throughout being an influencer, unless you reach a certain level, like a KSI that can go off and do all of these different things that's very rare. So be prepared to be stuck on that, and also just don't be afraid to lean into it more as well find more micro pocketing niches. I mean, that is a that's a great niche, and it sounds like a really good integration, you know, having 20 influencers in a room and doing that because, you know, a lot of people are concerned about their health, and they don't go to the doctors because we're British and don't want to bother the doctors. So having a blood test and doing that sounds like a really, really clever activation.

Speaker 2  11:30
What sort of advice would you give for brands starting out, who carriers, who may not have used influencers before, or maybe startups? What are the big factors that lead to success if you're just starting out of a brand and you want to harness influencer power,

Speaker 3  11:47
I would go back to the story angle. So for us, when we were looking for influencers to collaborate with at our event, we've either worked with influencers that we already knew of because they were already using our service, already talking about us. So that's ideal. You're the perfect advocate. Or we would go on social media and search for people that were going through those journeys, whether it's trying to get answers for adult acne or really struggling with exhaustion or maybe some other symptoms that can be fixed quite easily by understanding what's going on in your blood. So for us, it was really about trying to tap into a conversation that's already being had by these creators, and us being able to go on there, you know, as the people consuming the content, but as also the people that have got to manage the brand content. We have to have that alignment.

Speaker 4  12:35
If you're a new brand, use a specialist agency or hire an expert, because a lot of campaigns die at the first step, which is identification. If you identify the wrong type of influencer, you're going to fail. It doesn't matter how good the execution is in the campaign. You're reaching the wrong audiences. You're reaching the wrong demos. Your audience isn't going to deliver the results that you feel like it might. So definitely don't go in blind. Also think about testing going even smaller, using small guys and girls who have less cost. And don't worry about using a funnel program, which is something that we might look at, where you target a mega influencer and all the way down to micro niche creators. Just make sure you are using a specialist and don't over invest initially, get some tangible results in your hand, you know, by using smaller creators, and then scale up from there.

Speaker 3  13:33
Oh, see, that's really interesting, because we had a real variety of creators at our event, you know, from 30,000 followers up to a quarter of a million followers. And actually you do have influencers for different reasons, some being brand awareness, some being sales, but we noticed that the smaller creators were actually converting 10 times over than what bigger creators are. And obviously we had different goals, different KPIs, and both were successful in their own rights. But if you have a goal of sales and conversions, don't just go for your big, mega celebrities, big influencers, because sometimes it is those smaller creators with a really engaged audience that are going to be your bread and butter, as

Speaker 4  14:11
we've spoken about already, influencer marketing is about a personal connection. People feel like they have a bigger personal connection with smaller creators, because there's still that infancy, you know, this exciting growth of a creator. And once again, let's use KSI as an example. Him on Instagram probably won't get a reply. If you reach out to a smaller creator, you'll probably get quite a personable reply. All adds to the personal connection that you're creating. So as Keris said, You, when we convert an influencer campaign, depending on the budget, we might look at having a mega celebrity for reach, for brand outreach, and all the way down to really smaller to actually drive the bottom level sales

Speaker 2  14:55
connections, the key is a bigger thing, curious to get a connection than to. Have a sort of huge name behind it,

Speaker 3  15:02
definitely. And I do really believe that you have to look at influencers as a brand by those two different arms. You have conversion influencers, and you have reach influencers. And I think not mixing them up is the better way to do it, because you can approach your campaign or event, whatever you're doing in different ways for different groups of people, you can't just put all creators into one box. You have to set your KPIs and pick the influencers that work best for each one.

Speaker 2  15:29
You're both influencer watchers. What are your standout campaigns that you've seen other than your own, of course, that you've seen over the last year or two? That you think this is something that marketers should watch look how they've done this, and they can learn from it.

15:44
I'm a really big fan of the

Speaker 4  15:49
manscaped campaign that has been going on over several years. They they're a brand that didn't really have an established audience, and basically went all in on influencer marketing very early on, and then they've started to look at more traditional forms of marketing. They've created a brand of very, very smart influencer marketing trends, very smart marketing execution and working with the right influencers, and having this real focus on eliminating influencers that aren't driving what they think that they can drive, and using a big pool of influencers and then really narrowing it down, I think their work in influencer marketing is probably the most impressed I've been over some years, just how their longevity of campaigns as well, and the fact that they're willing to reinvest in creators that They've worked with who are still delivering their results, because long term partnerships are always more beneficial for driving sales when done correctly. And so I'm a big fan of what those guys are doing over

Speaker 2  16:51
there. These are the guys that promote all body grooming,

Speaker 4  16:56
yeah, for males specifically, but they've actually ventured out into everyone now, so not an easy gig,

Speaker 2  17:03
but delivered well, and have convinced their audience and created a consumer base for it through influence.

Speaker 4  17:08
Even as somebody that's a specialist in influencer marketing and is trying to get brands to go to influencer marketing, my key takeaway often is, don't invest all of your money in influencer marketing. Now, these guys sort of went against the grain there, and did put a large majority of their money into influencer marketing, but it was so unprecedented at the time to do that, that they hit such a large audience that they created this brand off the back of it. I don't know if they've hit their KPIs, but what they've done is they've created a long term brand now that's still going, still very successful, and is still using influencers to drive the majority of their

Speaker 2  17:47
stuff. Charis, anything that stood out for you in the last 1218, months,

Speaker 3  17:51
definitely. And I really believe this example is paving the way for what influencer marketing should look like in the future. So brand called Poppy. They sell flavored soda over in the US, and I'm pretty sure in the UK now as well. And they partnered with Alex Earle, who obviously rose to millions and millions of followers back in about 2023 she's been a real example of how creators are working in this space at the moment, but it's come out at the minute. She did an interview with the Wall Street Journal, and she said when she started working with poppy, she actually signed an equity deal rather than an initial payment or fee. You know how traditional influence marketing works? And I found that so interesting, because as influencers, they are businesses, we need to see them as partners, and not just one off or, you know, we need an ad posting. We'll give you 1000 pounds or whatever it might be, being able to join that business as a real partner with equity. We're really starting to see the rise in the value of influencers and how they can really boost a business. And Poppy, over the last few years have absolutely blown up, and I think they're one of the top contenders in the soda market, which is insane. And I think that comes down to picking the right partnerships and having them on as a real, genuine connection and something like an equity deal. It's

Speaker 2  19:16
interesting, because she's got skin in the game, then, hasn't she, for the success of the campaign, if you get a one off fee up front, in a sense, in a financial sense, doesn't matter whether the campaign is a success or otherwise, but if you get an equity deal, if it can work for both parties, both parties have a mutual interest in this succeeding. What

Speaker 3  19:35
was really interesting is she actually took the advice for that from her dad, who has grown hugely successful businesses in, I believe, construction. So she's really been able to take that business acumen from a traditional industry that's been running for years through into the influencer marketing world, and probably changed how it's going to work for a lot of companies.

Speaker 2  19:56
Moving forward, when you're running a campaign, you. You get as a marketing managers, as marketing directors, people running a department in marketing or an agency. You get it, you get a good feel for how the campaign's going. But then at some point, you've got to go and tell the FD how the campaign's going, and he's or she is not going to necessarily understand the sort of instinctive metrics that marketers have. How do you measure the success of influencer campaigns, first and foremost, for yourself, but then for the business? What are the ways that you can prove the return on what is, in some cases, a very big investment?

Speaker 4  20:37
It's a multitude of things. Influencer Marketing is as much about brand recognition as it is about sales. Now, depends what the brand wants if they're trying to drive sales, then how we package a campaign is going to be very different to depending on how many people they want to reach, or or other factors that we can take into account. You know, app downloads, link clicks, etc. What they come to us and say is how we're going to then draw a proposal for a campaign, and ultimately they're going to be the ones going off and delivering the results to their MDS. Now whether or not we see it to be a success is whether or not we get rebooked or if we get positive feedback, there is still quite a big gap between brands delivering results to the influencers that they're working with because they don't see it as a priority, and so influencers often have to ask or sometimes beg for how did the campaign do? Because it's not in the brand's interest to be spending time telling an influencer how they've done it depends on what the goal is for the campaign. But for us, it's if we've met what we've been asked to meet, essentially.

Speaker 2  21:49
So for you, charis, is it is all about instinctive brand building, or sometimes do you have to prove to the business that it's helped your sales?

Speaker 3  21:57
I think it's a balance for me. Whenever I work with managing directors, Finance Directors, whoever they are on the SLT, are really just trying to speak their language. So a finance director is wanting to go and see figures always. That's always going to be the case. And I think where you can show them the figures, if you've given an influence or a link or a code, use those figures and show them how the campaign has worked, but then also bring them in on the journey. I think part of marketing and being in a marketing team in a business is helping other people to understand it to the same extent that we do. I think everybody sees what marketing is, because they see the social posts, they see the tags, they see what we're doing, because we're very front facing. But nobody else in the business really understands what goes on behind the scenes and really why we do what we do. And I think the only way you're going to be able to help people understand that is if you teach them, whether that's the finance director, customer service team, whoever it is, really bring the wider business into what you're doing, and help them believe in it. So then when they see a campaign go live, they understand what's happened behind the scenes and they understand why it's done in a certain way.

Speaker 2  23:02
Indeed, we've got to be trying to prove to our department, to our customers and to our business that these things work.

Speaker 5  23:11
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Speaker 2  23:22
Let's explore the darker side for a second, of influencers. We're a business or a marketing agency or an influencer agency, and we are bringing in third parties over whom we have some but not great amount, usually, of control. They are then carrying our brand. They're ambassadors for our brand, but they're not part of our business. You can easily see Christian Sturt how it could go quite badly wrong and damage our brand, damage our reputation, and have influences, standard bearers for a brand who do not align with our brand values. How do we avoid that?

Speaker 4  24:08
Due Diligence at every level, you need to be meticulous with the creators that you're selecting. One of the other reasons for using an influencer agency or or somebody that specialist is they will do that due diligence to find out whether or not there's a chance that a creator goes rogue or says or does something that is going to contradict the brand values. Make sure contracts are airtight to protect the brand from having to pay if the influencer does something untoward that impacts them, potentially seeking reparations. If there is something that's really damaging, something that influences have to be very careful about so they're aware that, you know, going off on a run or saying something that. Is deemed controversial doesn't just impact them because they are brand now. They are representing brand values that they're aligned with. But most importantly, in the event that there is a crisis, to make sharp decisions, to disassociate yourself with the Creator, if it is having an impact on the brand to say they don't align with our values and we stop working with them, and most importantly, to speak to them if you can, if time allows, to allow you to speak to them, to see what was meant behind the message. Was it satirical? Is there something that they're not understanding? But most importantly, as a brand, to protect your brand values, so due diligence, make sure you protect yourself in contracts, and then also to keep an eye on creators that you've worked with, ultimately, all the creators that you work with, although that's not always scalable, most importantly, the creators that you've got active campaigns with. You know, there are creators that have crashed out, for want of a better phrase, that have worked with brands several years back, and that brand's not going to see the impact of that crash out, but if you're a brand that's worth them recently, like on the last video, last two videos, and people are still watching that content, or more eyes have been drawn to that content because of this crash out, then disassociation and making a real statement. And actually, I've seen that has positive benefits on brands that are willing to be very sharp with their actions, that there are people that understand that you don't have full control over what your creators are saying. And so if you're able to make that connection, then perfect. And some have come out positively off the back of it.

Speaker 2  26:39
Chris, long, long ago, deep in the CIM Marketing Podcast archives. I believe it was season one. It may have been season two, but do look it up if you're listening. We did a show about when influences go wrong, what happens to the brands, and how to deal with it, and multiple how not to deal with it. Sometimes things do go wrong, and you've got to be prepared. Kristen stern saying, to take bold action,

Speaker 3  27:05
definitely. I think the worst thing you can do is bury head in the sand and pretend it's not happening. You know, the reality is, if you're working on a brand side, marketing team, things do go wrong, whether it's influencers or something else, and you have to be able to figure out how to pick up the pieces. And if it is something as publicly facing as an influencer scandal, please get a really good PR team on your side, because they will help you navigate that if you are genuinely stuck,

Speaker 2  27:28
action is the key. Don't be passive. That seems to be the lesson here. Do not be passive. Accept that things happen, sometimes completely out of our control as marketers. Some things happen. We're bringing a third party. Things go wrong. That's when you have to step into action. Billy ocean applies here. What's next? Do you think Christian stirred in the influence of space? You're embedded in it, immersed in it. At an influencer agency, look into your crystal ball. What do you see as big developments, the trends coming forward in the next 12 to 18 months,

Speaker 4  28:02
I think we're going to lean more into what we've already got with micro niche creators are going to become more prominent. We're going to see, obviously, the rise of AI, whether or not that's good or bad. We're going to see more white labeling like we were talking about, we're going to see more brands giving up equity to work with the right influencers. We might even see something I was thinking about the other day, where pools of influencers are invited to create content on a company, and they're offered a certain percentage, like a quite small percentage each, and so a company sets aside 5% for influencer equity, and then that's divvied out between certain influencers that could become quite prominent. Obviously, there's more investment when you get a brand proposal, you kind of one and done to a certain degree, but with equity, you're always trying to push the boundaries and do more to create a bigger brand. You just have to look at something like prime with KSI and Logan Paul, or shades by Nico, which is a new sweet company that's out there, or will any and James Marriott, who are quite niche. UK creators launched a coffee brand. These were selling out on day of release. Sometimes external companies were actually picking up products and reselling at much higher prices. There's so many examples of that being successful when done correctly. How's your

Speaker 2  29:31
crystal ball? Chris Gardner, anything popping up?

Speaker 3  29:34
I really feel like we're going to see the rise in professionalism from influencers. So if you are a tiktoker with 10s of 1000s of followers, a million followers, whatever it is, I want to see you on LinkedIn. I want to see you positioning yourself as a strategist. And who does that really well is a creator called Holly Morris. She has got an incredible audience over on Tiktok She's hilarious and it's very relatable content. But. She is on LinkedIn. It is that professional side, and she does label herself as a strategist. And she doesn't approach ads as traditional brands have done, where it's here's a script, go and deliver it, please. She wants to take that creativity and make it fit her audience. She doesn't just want to take a brief and take it as verbatim. You know, she's really looking into it from a brand perspective. How can I as a business and an influencer sell this into my audience in a way that resonates with them, in the best way possible? And I think for her, stepping into her marketing brand strategy shoes is what I want to see, and she's always done that traditionally, but actually to be able to see the different sides of working with creators is amazing. I think it's very easy to jump into a partnership with somebody, and actually they're just really difficult to work with. So you're not going to want to work with them again as a brand. You know, creators are businesses, and they have to act like that.

Speaker 2  30:57
That's interesting. And increasing influencer equity, an increase in professionalism, Keris Gardner predicts, and of course, dare we say it again, an increase in digitalization. AI is here to stay, but as humans, we've got something to offer in the way that we build a connection with our customers. That's Christian Sturt and Keris Gardner. Thank you very much, both of you for your time and insights. What a great show. What an interesting update and what is a fascinating sector. Hope you've enjoyed

Speaker 4  31:24
it. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you very much for having me. It was very fun.

31:28
It was great fun. Great fun. Thanks very much, guys.

Speaker 2  31:33
That's all the time we have for this episode of The CIM Marketing podcast. You can find detailed show notes and links to additional resources mentioned by our guests@cim.co.uk forward slash Content Hub, forward slash podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and find it helpful, please consider supporting the show by leaving a rating and review. It really helps grow our reach. The CIM Marketing Podcast is hosted by me Ben Walker and produced for CIM by Brindley Walker, no relation, thanks again for tuning in to the CIM Marketing podcast.