Episode 93: How to become a young leader

00:03   

Intro:  

Welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode.   

00:17 
Host: 
Hello everybody, and welcome to the CIM Marketing podcast. And you know, on this show, we talk a lot about tools of the trade, tricks of the trade, how to do better in your job, how to get promoted, how to move jobs and pivot. But we've talked less frequently about how to get started in marketing, how to set out, how to get that first job, that first promotion, how to become a young leader in marketing early in your career.  

I'm delighted to say we've got a couple of young experts on this very topic today with us, in the shape of Miss Louise Crossley, who is Digital Marketing Manager at Target Internet, and Miss Jess O'Neal, who is senior marketing executive at Bowker Motor Group. Jess, Louise, how are you today? 

01:07 
Jess: 

Yeah, really well, thank you. How are you? 

01:09 
Host: 

Great. It's great to have you on the show. And you know, it's great to have two young marketers on the show. Most of our guests are 30 something or 40 something, and it's great to have couple of 20 somethings here, just because, actually, you know what? Certainly from my career as a journalist, I think getting that first job, that first promotion, is often the toughest and the biggest gambit you make in your career. And it'd be great to learn some tips from you guys on how we do that and how you've managed to move into a position of sort of young leadership. I'll start with you Louise, let's go back a little bit. Why did you choose marketing as a career in the first place? What did you find interesting and exciting about it? What attracted you to it?  

01:50 
Louise: 
So I think originally, when you're at school and you're sort of trying to figure out what it is that you want to do, what you might want to go into, marketing's really not a sector that's pushed. And definitely in my school anyway, where I'm from, in Jersey, finance is really heavy, and, you know, finance was pushed or you can go into teaching or be a doctor or be a vet, but marketing isn’t really something that's ever discussed. I was really adamant that I wasn't going to go down sort of traditional banking, finance route. So I was just exploring my options a little bit. And I was actually speaking with a career’s advisor, and they were talking to me, and they were like, based off talking to you, we think that marketing is something that you should go into. And the more I looked into it, the more I just fell in love with the idea of it. And I think having you, worked for the right organisation, that ability to just be really creative and not be constrained in your role, and you can sort of really thrive, and seeing projects that you work for, whether it's for a client or whether you're working client side, having a project been started by you or a bit of creative or social assets, and seeing it follow through from start to finish is such an amazing feeling. And I think just being able to work on such different things and with different people every day is amazing.  

03:00 
Host: 
It’s an unusual place, isn't it, Jersey? It's a bit like the City of London, but on an island next to France, isn't it? Everybody there works in banking or finance, and you took a different path. Did you find that, you know, by taking that different path, you got some raised eyebrows, and people said, well, you know, there's all of these fabulous jobs in finance for you, and you're doing something avant garde? 

03:21 
Louise: 
Yeah, I think so. And it's one of those where the majority of my friends are in finance. So they could ask me 100 times what I do, but they'll still never remember, because it's something that over here still not a lot of people are into, but I 100% don't regret it, and I think marketing is a great, great career. 

03:37 
Host: 
What about you Jess? You're from the other end of the country, up in Lancashire, is that right? 

03:42 
Jess: 
Correct yes. I, since I was a little girl, always had a very prominent creative flair. And I think, like Louise said, growing up and being in education, marketing is never at the forefront of a conversation in terms of careers. So I went very much down the art route, I dabbled in graphic design. And to be honest with you, marketing was never an option for me. I never really discovered it until later on. So long story short, I interviewed at art schools in Glasgow and London that got kiboshed on the back of an operation I had to have. And then I'm not the type of person who can sit at home and not do anything. So I was like, right, I need to get myself back in the job. And I actually fell into the automotive industry through accounting, believe it or not, I went into an accounting apprenticeship because at the time it was something that I found that I thought, right, I can do that. But as you can probably imagine, it wasn't for me. I wasn't thriving in that environment. And then a marketing job came up within the business. And I thought hmm, shall I go for it? Shall I not? It was quite risky. Obviously, within the same business, I was going through my accounting studies, and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to go for it. See what happens. Anyway, I ended up interviewing, and I did get the position of market executive, although I didn't have any record or qualifications of marketing. I do think, like Louise was saying, again that creative flair, passion for being creative and thinking outside the box, I think is what essentially landed me the job. So I've not really had a typical path to marketing, and I kind of had to hustle and bustle to get there myself. But yeah, absolutely love it. 

05:19 
Host: 
There's a common thread here. You both, in your own way, rejected finance.  
 
05:24 
Louise: 
(Laughs) Yeah, I wasn't gonna fall down that hole. 

05:28 
Host: 
You rejected it in the first place Louise, and then Jess, you had a taste for it, and you rejected it latterly, but you stayed in the same company and you did this quite incredible pivot, which is a bit risky at the time. You're sort of halfway through your accountancy exams, and you think, you get this offer and think that's more me. But did you feel that you were sort of wasting the accountancy stuff you'd done, or did you think that, you know what, I've just got to take the opportunity and do something different? 

05:53 
Jess: 
Listen, it's always going to be a string to my bow. I think you can't regret anything. And I do see it that if I hadn't have got that place within the business, then maybe that opportunity to go into marketing may not come to light. So you've got to see it like that, I suppose. Because, like I said, I didn't have any background in marketing. All I had was like crazy ideas, creative flair. I knew that's what I was passionate about, so it was almost the right opportunity at the right time. 

06:18 
Host: 
But nevertheless, both of you sort of broke out of the norm. So you were in an accountancy job Jess, and you decided to move into marketing. Louise, you were in a finance island, and you decided to move into marketing. Presumably, that was one of the challenges for both of you, wasn't it? At the initial phase, you had to prove to people around you and to yourself you made the right move? 

06:43 
Jess: 
Yeah, absolutely. I think obviously just because it was the same business, there was no slack on me. It was you had to prove yourself. I went through exactly the same interview processes. And I think, obviously I did my research, I studied up. I definitely worked for the position I'm in today. And, yeah, I had to put together a piece which showed my creativity and explain, look, this is me. Hopefully the studying can come second hand to this, and this is what I can bring to the table as a marketeer. It was more trying to show them what I have, what tools that I had at the time, and what I could bring to the job in the future.  

07:20 
Host: 
Focus on your strengths, not your weaknesses. 

07:22 
Jess: 
Exactly (laughs). 

07:23 
Host: 
Which is always a good tip when starting out or actually throughout your career, if you can develop your strengths and not focus so much on your weaknesses, which we all have. And how about you, Louise, when you decided to break the mold in Jersey and go into marketing, what sort of challenges did you face?  

07:40 
Louise: 
So as I was saying about earlier, in Jersey, finance is sort of really heavily pushed upon you, and so there's loads of schemes for entering. So there's, you know, graduate schemes, school leaver schemes, first joiner programs, whereas in marketing, there's no, like, easy route to sort of join, so you sort of have to make your own path. I think when I first joined there was a CIM shadow scheme, which was in Jersey, and it was open to Year 10’s and I was 2 years too late  so I was in year 12, and I was like, please let me join, because I've just figured out it's what I want to do. And they let me on. And I had some work experience at an agency, and that was actually how I first got my job. So there might not always be an easy route into the job that you want to do, but if you push yourself out of your comfort zone and prove enough that you know it's the journey you will embark on.  

08:23 
Host: 
That's interesting, though, what you've just said there is really interesting, because there was a form, this is for year 10, and the form didn't fit. So you tried to break the form. You said, hang on, I'm not supposed to be able to do this, but I want to do it, and this is why. 

08:40 
Louise: 
Please, please let me in (laughs). 

08:42 
Host: 
And it worked. But there's a lesson there for other people, isn't there, that if you get a hurdle like that, don't always take something on face value. 

08:52 
Louise:Yeah. And I think you just have to try and push yourself out of your comfort zone, because they might have said, no, we can't accept you. And then you've got to find sort of another way of doing things, but if you don't try, then you'll never know where it could take you.  

09:04 
Host: 
It’s interesting, isn't it Jess when, particularly when you're starting out these natural obstructions do sometimes face you, and you have to find an interesting way or an unusual way of getting around them?  

09:15 
Jess: 
Absolutely. But I do agree with Louise, I think if you're passionate enough about something and you want it enough, and you make that decision like that’s my career path, you've got to find a way. You've got to find that opportunity and that door that's maybe slightly ajar for you to come through and progress on to your next step as a marketeer. 

09:30 
Host: 
You had a challenge in itself, in that you were moving from one industry to another and had to make the case in your own business. But beyond that, what are the challenges have you overcome at the start of your career? 

09:45 
Jess: 
I think a huge one was the fact I didn't have any qualifications to my name. And I think as an industry, especially it being such a saturated industry, a lot of people ask for industry experience. They want to see those qualifications. They want to see that you’re bringing that to the table before, essentially, they acknowledge you as a candidate. So I think I was quite lucky, in a sense, because I managed to get myself around the table, to open myself up to that conversation without that behind me, and then go on to study with CIM and gain my qualifications off the back of it. So I suppose, in a sense, that may have been my downfall if that opportunity hadn't arose, because I didn't have that to back me up. I only had my word and my skills as a person, and not essentially as a qualified marketeer.  

10:30 
Host: 
So at the stage, when you are just having to talk yourself and talk about your skills, there is a skill in that in itself, isn't there? We talked about focusing on your strengths, but how do you convey that to the person who you hope will be employing you? 

10:42 
Jess: 
I just absolutely love being creative. I love coming up with ideas. I love planning. I love storyboarding. I love taking a brand, understanding a brand, understanding its people, and creating that sentiment and emotion through these campaigns. And I think that's something you can't be taught as an individual. I think you've either got it or you haven't. And I think that is something that I brought to the table, in a sense, I did my interview with the Porsche brand. And, you know, before I went into the interview, I took away with me what the brand is all about, the people it markets to, the stories it tells. You know, it's a brand completely driven by emotion, and that's what I absolutely love doing, that human to human marketing. So, yeah, I think that was probably one of my biggest strengths in going into the interview for my job that I'm currently in. 

11:31 
Host: 
It's interesting, isn't it? And you've moved beyond that first gate, that first stage, and now to both of you in sort of quasi or actual leadership roles, aren't you? And that brings with it, doesn't it Louise, its own challenges once you move into actually leading others? 
 
11:45 
Louise: 
Yeah, for sure. And I think in terms of when I started in my role, and the challenges that I faced, you quite often leaving school, I think think you're going to go into your first career and you're going to be taught everything. And that's not the case, especially when you're joining a really active, you know, work environment. In my case, it was an agency that I started at, and there is a lot to learn. And it's not just all about marketing models and principles and why people behave the way they do, but understanding the platforms that you use, understanding how Google Analytics works, because I'm mainly in a digital role, understanding how Google Analytics works, how to run Google Ads campaigns, or meta business suite, or your CRM system. All of that isn't necessarily taught to you but requires a lot of self-learning. And the more you take on the sort of self-learning role, you actually understand platforms better than you would, maybe, if they had been taught to you, but there is a lot of self-initiative that needs to be used to understand sort of the everyday workings of your business. 

12:42 
Host: 
How do you do that? You decide just to immerse yourself in it? Or when you come across something that you don't understand, you make sure you learn how to understand it? 

12:51 
Louise: 
That's exactly it. It's just understanding, you know, there's something here now that I'm not fully aware of how it works, I'm going to try and figure out a way to do that. So, you know, I enrolled on a bunch of different courses, watched endless amount of YouTube videos, just asking for guidance, but you don't necessarily get everything taught to you in the way that you think that you would. So you do have to do a lot of self-understanding.  

13:14 
Host: 
That’s a really interesting point, though, isn't it Jess, that when you're starting out and you're becoming a leader, you're starting to take on new duties, new tasks, new roles, you are going to encounter, serially encounter things that you've not encountered before, things that you don't know how to do, and you can wait for someone to tell you how to do them, or you can get somebody else to do them. But what Louise Crossley is saying is that that's not the best route. The best route is to fire yourself straight into them and get your hands dirty until you do know how to do them. 

13:47 
Jess: 
Exactly. I completely agree with Louise. I think the higher up you climb, the more responsibility comes. And I think I'm like Louise, the thing about marketing it's like, oh, they do a bit of social media, they do a bit of bit of this, bit of that, but I do a lot of digital based things, and I was in exactly the same position as Louise. I was like, right, okay, so I need to set up a GDN campaign. I've got to do a bit of PPC. And I'm like, these terminologies have been thrown at me, and you do have to adapt as a marketeer. You have to outsource yourself to find these resources to be like, right, how am I going to learn this? Because otherwise you will never grow. And it is, again, goes back to being driven as a marketeer, to want to be in that position and to want to learn, because it's an ever changing environment, and you just have to keep up with it.  
 
14:33 
Louise: 
Especially as a younger person moving into an industry, there's this whole culture around you know, it's bad to fail, and failure seems such a bad thing. Whereas now it's like, okay, fail fast. There's nothing wrong with failing, and if you're going to fail, you're going to fail, fail hard and do it fast, because at least you're trying. And you know, if you if you throw yourself into something and you try out and it doesn't work, then you can move on, and you're much quicker than find out what does work, than if you're too scared to try in the first place.  

14:57 
Host: 
Do you find that that's welcomed by the people around you, your bosses and your colleagues, that they sort of accept that you're not going to get everything right first time? 

15:04 
Louise: 
100% and I think it sort of comes down to the culture that is obviously in your workplace, and making sure that there's a safe space to be around, and that people that you're managing, you aren't necessarily micromanaging them, but you're supporting them and guiding them, and you create a place where they feel safe enough that they can learn and grow. 

15:25 
Host: 
So that's a two-way thing, then, isn't it Jess O'Neil, that yes, you've got to find yourself and you've got to work out how to do things, but you've also got to find a company, an employer, an agency, that has the right culture, so you are able to do this stuff. So you're able to learn. You are able to work an environment where people say, you know what, we know you're not going to get everything right first time, but as long as you get there and you try hard, we're going to back you. 

15:50 
Jess: 
Absolutely. I think without that support, I mean, I certainly wouldn't be where I am today without the support of my peers and the stakeholders and the directors putting me through my studies and supporting me. I think obviously you have to prove to them that you will fulfill your promises as a marketeer, and you will deliver. But also, going back to Louise’s culture, having that trust, having the transparency, being able to have the conversations, that just speaks volumes, and it also helps your confidence as well. I think being able to know you have that support in the background if you need it.  

16:22 
Host: 
The interesting thing to think about here is that, I think I did this, I made this mistake when I was starting out, is that you think that when you're trying to get your first job, your first promotion, your first leadership role, that somebody, the company's doing you a favour, but actually there's a lot that happens the other way that you can be doing your organisation a favour by bringing new perspectives of young people and new ideas and a different lived experience to people who are long in the tooth like me in their 40s, who are probably your bosses or your boss's boss. As a young leader, as a young marketer, Jess, what do you think that you can bring, or young marketers generally can bring to businesses in terms of fresh ideas and new ways of doing things?  

17:11 
Jess: 
It’s exactly that. I think they bring a fresh perspective on things. I think they come in with an untarnished opinion. I think especially in this digital age, we can adapt, we can learn, we can we know what's happening. We do keep on top of trends, especially young marketeers working within the digital space. And I also think if they're nurtured properly through a business, they grow with a brand that they become an advocate for that brand. And going back to the conversation about culture, if you looked after within a brand, you're going to look after the brand itself. So it's a two way street, really.  

17:44 
Host: 
Do you find that you have to challenge based on your different experiences of someone who's my age, 20 years older than you or more than 20 years older than you. Do you find that you challenge the business and say, what, hang on, I'm not that sure that that's going to work, and this is how I would suggest doing it instead? 

18:01 
Louise: 
Yeah, I think it's really important, but I think that also does come from higher up and making sure that people feel safe enough to do that. And I think a culture that's definitely ingrained in my workspace is the sort of removal of the hierarchy. So it's not a case of, you know, the people at the top are speaking down to you, but everyone's an equal, and everyone's comfortable to give their opinion and have their voice heard and make sure that they're really seen in the business.  

18:25 
Jess: 
I can't speak for all businesses, but I know our marketing meetings will have the CEO sat in with us, and he will sit back and listen to what we're saying, and, he'll have some opinions and ideas. But it's nice to have that shared space, and again remove that hierarchy and that, ooh maybe we can't say that, or maybe we can't bring that idea to the table. So it is, again, that transparency between everyone on the team. 

18:46 
Host: 
That comes to the quality of leadership, doesn't it? And if you're thinking about the people who are leading you, your leaders yourselves, but every leader is also led, unless they're the chief executive. And even then, they should be being led by their customers. What do you think are the great qualities of top marketing leaders from what you've seen in your careers so far? 

19:09 
Louise: 
I think something that's really important, and especially as we're younger, you know, we are really passionate. And I think having that passion from somebody who you look up to in the workforce really rub stuff on you, and it really inspires you, and it really inspires the people around. I think, as I was sort of touching on before, we don't want to be too restricted, because that is the death of creativity. We need the people who are above us to be giving us that freedom to sort of do our own thing, because that's where the magic happens. I think we're also, to touch on the whole COVID point, you know, we're sort of now at the beginning of the working from home era and the hybrid working. And I think it's also adapting to the fact of, let us do what we're comfortable as well with. We're sort of more accustomed to maybe Flexi working and working from home, but if you let us sort of thrive in the environment that we feel comfortable in, then it works for us. 

20:09 
Host: 
How have you found that? You're both in the office today, I can see but you're not always in the office presumably. 
 
20:15 
Jess: 
I am. 
 
20:16 
Host: 
You’re in the office every day? 

20:17 
Jess: 
Every day. I love it. I wouldn't want to work from home.  

20:21 
Host: 
Well, I was going to say, it's an interesting point, because one of the critiques of home working, probably permanent home working, rather than hybrid, is that for younger people it's harder to learn and collaborate if you're stuck in your living room every day. And it's interesting that you're actually a big fan of working in the office Jess. 

20:44 
Jess: 
I am, I think it's obviously different for everybody. I work with cars, essentially, and they're very tangible products and I think you have to be around that, or to be able to sell the product, and be around the people, be around in the showroom. So obviously people's environments change and everyone's different. But I think most importantly, as a marketeer, to be in a room with other marketeers and designers, you've got to bounce ideas off each other. You've got to have those conversations. So that, for me, that is why I prefer being in the environment of an office rather than being at home, independently. 

21:21 
Louise: 
And I think yeah, because I am in the office most of the time, but it's sort of very flexible in terms of what works for you. And I think it's just in terms of what leaders can do to help the younger generation. It's more just make sure that they're willing to adapt. And so if something does work better for somebody, and they feel like they thrive better in that environment, then sort of adjust to them and make sure that they feel like you know, they can work from home, if that's what works for them. 

21:47 
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22:00 
Host: 
And how do you like to be led? From your boss, you know, what is it that you like to see in terms of the qualities of people who are leading you?  

22:09 
Jess: 
I think marketing, it's always about being curious, and it's always about right, it's never being the most cleverest in the room. It's about right, what can we do next? How can we innovate? So I think it's important to have someone who's leading you, who is very much on the same wavelength and bounces ideas off you, rather than blocking ideas, and allows you to experiment as a marketeer and be openly creative and try different things. And like we said, fail. Things don't always work, but it's about trial and error, and it is about building a strategy which you know is going to work, and then also innovating. My boss is absolutely fabulous, and I think what's so good about her is she has an open line of communication, she's supportive, she's transparent, trustworthy, and she allows me to work independently with that trust, because she knows we have that working relationship where I will come to her with things that go wrong. So it is about building those relationships, I think, with your leaders. 

23:05 
Louise: 
And we also talk a lot about this whole idea of creating t-shaped people within the workforce, which you know my boss, and we all talk about it a lot, and it's essentially the idea of, somebody has a diverse range of skills up at the top, which is like the short part of the T and then down the middle, you've got a large area of expertise. So it might be where you specialise in. So for me, it might be digital marketing. But the whole idea of that is you have an understanding of how business works, how to communicate with people in an office environment, and everything like that. So then when you go into the workforce, especially if you look at it from an agency point of view, you might not understand what the web developer does really, or you might not understand what the designer does, but you understand sort of how their role works, and you know how to write a brief or you know how to communicate with them, and then what you've got is someone who can go into the workforce, and you know that they can be thrown into environment, and they can problem solve, and they can understand everyone's roles, and they can collaborate with other people, all whilst they're sort of specialising in one area. So that's a good sort of thing that we like to look at quite a lot. 

24:10 
Host: 
T based people, T based leaders, T based executives, is a really interesting idea, isn't it? It's these ideas, you say, the breadth of skills or disciplines across the top of the T, and the long vertical of the T is your area of expertise, which is obviously a lot deeper, but gives you an idea, Jess O'Neil, of everything that's going on. You know everything from the people who are selling the cars, valeting the cars, looking after the showroom, doing the accounts, etc, etc, etc. You've got a little bit of knowledge about how all of those people work, but obviously your area of expertise, the deep line of the T, is in marketing.  

24:50 
Jess: 
Yeah absolutely. And I think sometimes that's not what people understand about marketing. It's, yes, you kind of have a specialist area, but you have to be able to understand that all areas of the business, because essentially, it's all about the person that walks through the door. So everyone has a responsibility to make sure that the minute someone enters the business or contacts your business, they're looked after. And it's understanding from point A to point Z, how they get to that point, and everyone in every single department, whether it be in our case, sales after sales, balloting, and retention, CRM, everyone has a responsibility, so you have to have those open communications to be able to nurture your customer through your business.  

25:31 
Host: 
It's interesting. We do talk a lot on this podcast about marketers having to understand our whole business, which I think is absolutely true. We should understand our whole business. But it's also important that we make sure that the businesses understand marketers, Louise. 

25:47 
Louise: 
Yeah and I also think there can be quite a lot of stigma around people think, oh, you know, we're just the younger people in the organisation. We don't really care how well stuff does, whereas, actually, we are younger, and we have this whole career ahead of us, and, you know, we actually really do care how that project turns out or how that campaign runs. So I think people often sort of do have that stigma on us. But, you know, we want to be involved because we do care about the outcome. 

26:11 
Host: 
I think you're right, you know, I think you are absolutely right. I think there is a prejudice against young people in business as in life. I think it's one of the, sadly, one of the last acceptable prejudices, and it shouldn't be acceptable, and it's often down to the young people themselves to overcome it. So how do you go about overcoming that prejudice against young people in your businesses, in your companies, in your agencies?  

26:37 
Louise: 
You do just have to prove yourself, and whether it's a case of, you know, constantly showing what you're doing or different courses that you might have enrolled on to. But just proving that you're really passionate and you can really care about the business, obviously, that works both ways, but I think that's one way to do it. And I think as younger people, we're also just so intrinsically digital, and we have such a high understanding of the way that everything digital works. And we spend so much time on social platforms, as Jess was saying before, we're constantly looking at trends, and we can really help drive. I think there was a stat I can't remember exactly what it is, but I think 21% of the population is now Generation Z, so it's like we really understand the way that we work. So I think just constantly proving your knowledge and looking to better yourself and looking into those trends and proving that you give what the company you do. 

27:29 
Host: 
it's interesting, isn't it, Jess that, as well as having you know young people, young marketers, understand their business, you need to find a way of getting the business to understand the young marketers and what you guys are trying to achieve and what you want to do and your ambitions for the business? 

27:45 
Jess: 
Yeah, absolutely. And it goes back to what Louise was saying. You have to have the confidence to speak up for yourself as a marketeer, not in a negative way, but to bring positive change for the business. And unfortunately, sometimes people do have to see that before, depending like, oh, actually, yeah, you're doing all right. You're all right at what you do. You've just got to have confidence in your ability. And you don't always know everything. There's always going to be someone who knows more than you, and it's just being able to say, okay, I need to learn, I want to learn and continue to grow in the role that I'm in. 

28:16 
Host: 
All of this happens in three ways. First way is that the marketers themselves, you guys have got to do the right things, you've got to get to get yourself out there. We've got to get our hands dirty and make sure we're constantly learning, practical learning, CIM courses, anything we can do to make sure we're learning. We've got to find the right employers. We've got to search out and look for the right employers. It sounds like you guys have got really good employers that help to create a culture where you can thrive. You've also got to find the right boss. You've got to find somebody who helps you get up, get up and get on. And you know, as we come to the end of the show, I just wanted you to think a little bit about the best boss you've ever had, and how he or she showed up in the workplace, and what they did for you and what you learned from them. 

29:06 
Louise: 
Yeah, I think, as we sort of touched on before, a lot of it is just give us the freedom that we need to sort of come up with our own ideas, let us know that our input is valued, because then we've got enough freedom to sort of let that magic happen and just really sort of guiding and supporting us, obviously managing us is a part of their role. But we don't necessarily want to feel micromanaged. We want to feel like it's a safe space and that we've got the guidance and support there if we need it. 

29:35 
Jess: 
If it wasn't for my boss, she went through the CIM, she now has chartership, and she was the one who encouraged me, she pushed for me to go down that route, because she saw my potential as a marketeer. So I think it's so important to have a boss who does support you, allows those conversations to happen, doesn't stop you in your path of growth as a marketeer. I think, honestly, I think it comes down to that support, obviously, to a level you have to prove yourself as well. You have to meet them in the middle, because you've got a job to do. But you need to find someone who does see your potential and sees how good you are and helps you along that path. Because you never stop learning, like I'm still doing small courses here and there. I'm still picking things up, like Louise said. I'm still going online YouTube. You've got to continually develop and to have someone as a boss who sees that and supports that, I think that's essential. 
 
30:24 
Host: 
How long have you worked in marketing now? 

30:27 
Jess: 
Four years, maybe? Five years?  

30:29 
Host: 
Four or five years, and you Louise? 

30:31 
Louise: 
I'm coming up to about six years, and two years of those were in an agency, and now I'm client side. 

30:36 
Host: 
So between four and six years for both of you. If you think back to four or six years ago, when you were starting out, if you could give yourself one piece of advice knowing now what you didn't know then what do you think it would be? 

30:54 
Louise: 
I think, don't suffer in silence, as I was sort of touching on before it's not a bad thing to fail. It's not a bad thing to try and get something wrong. But, you know, ask questions if you're stuck. Don't feel like you can't seek advice or seek help, because that is what your mentors around you are there for. And yeah, I think it might just be something from being fresh out of school as well, but just don't feel like you have to struggle because you are new in the business, and you're not going to know everything, and you are there to learn. So don't be afraid to say, you know, I want to dedicate 10% of my day to looking up some things on YouTube or just doing some learning, because you are there to learn. And I think, yeah, don't be afraid to ask help. 

31:38 
Host: 
Great tip. Jess? 

31:40 
Jess: 
I’d say, my younger self, I'd say, don't be afraid to try different things. I think find yourself a space where you can try digital, you can try social, you can try SEO, you can try event management, you can try brand strategy, you can try advertisement, graphic design. Find what you're passionate about, and don't be afraid that you're going to do a bad job or you're going to fail, because if you've got the right support around you, then you will find the correct path for you, and you'll find your little niche. Coming into new industries can be scary, and it can be a little bit out of your own depth. And I think just remember why you're there. You're passionate about it. And I think just back yourself and don't be afraid to fail, like Louise said before. 

32:19 
Host: 
Great tips. Jess O'Neal. Louise Crossley. It's been great having you on the show. Hope you've enjoyed it. Will you come back in another four years?  

32:28 
Both: 
Absolutely, yeah, sure.  

32:30 
Host: 
It’s been great to have you on the show. Thank you very much indeed. 

32:32 
Both: 
Thank you. 

32:37  
Outro: 
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