Marketing 7.0 and leading through disruption

Chris Daly  0:00  
State of marketing is very fast and very exciting, as it really experiences the most significant transformation since the invention of the internet, with the impact of technology, but also the greater recognition of the impact that professional marketing can have in helping businesses grow and succeed,

Ben Walker  0:16  
Hello everybody, and welcome to the CIA Marketing Podcast. And you know our industry is running at a breakneck pace. The advent of technology, the march of AI is changing it beyond all recognition, and today to dig into that, and also ask, How leadership will change in this new paradigm. We are joined, I'm delighted to say, by two extremely special and dignified guests, none other than Professor Herman Juan Katya. Thank you. Great to have you on the show, and Herman Wine, as many of you will know, is the father of Asian marketing. He is co-author of the seminal Marketing X point O series, which began with Marketing 3.0 and is now in its edition at 7.0 which he has co-authored with the father of marketing, Western marketing, and also Iwan Setiawan is the co-author. We're delighted to have you on the show with us today, and also on the show today, a very important guest, mr. Chris Daly, who is chief executive of the Chartered Institute of Marketing here in the UK, joining us to talk a little bit more about the leadership angle and whether leadership will change from being a marketing function to something that is an existential necessity. Gentlemen, welcome to the show.

Hermawan Kartajaya  1:47  
Thank you. 

Chris Daly  1:47  
Very pleased to be here.

Ben Walker  1:48  
I'll start with you, Chris, and ask you for a potted analysis, a small analysis, a short analysis to a very big question. How do you see the state of the marketing industry today?

Chris Daly  1:58  
The state of marketing is very fast and very exciting, as it really experiences the most significant transformation since the invention of the internet, with the impact of technology, but also the greater recognition of the impact that professional marketing can have in helping businesses grow and succeed.

Ben Walker  2:16  
Do you concur with that, Hermawan?

Hermawan Kartajaya  2:20  
Yes. Why we launched marketing 7.0 now is because of the AI. AI is so active in influencing the customers, so the customers are becoming augmented human, and it is dangerous for marketers. So, marketers will get lost in marketing the goods and services, they will not do anything and leave it to technology that is our greatest concern. Why we launched marketing 7.0 now

Ben Walker  2:49  
is interesting. Is this this series, which began, I believe, with marketing 3.0 has become a sort of anthology of the industry. It's been now becoming sort of interesting history of the industry, although the latest one is a contemporary analysis of the industry marketing 7.0 When you Philip and Iwan were looking at this particular book, this new book, what do you think was the number one focus you found, or should be for marketers today?

Hermawan Kartajaya  3:18  
It should be the cognitive marketing, how to influence the augmented human, because the customer is becoming augmented human now. The customer is controlled by the AI, how to think, how to feel, how to socialise, how to decide, how to decide, and how to shop. So it is very dangerous. So if marketers cannot change their behaviour, so they must understand the customers, and they must use the technology also to be augmented human, also to lead the mind of the customers. Augmented human, augmented, like a fascinating concept. I will admit that I've not come across it before. I dare say that some of our audience may not yet have encountered this concept. Can you tell us a little bit more about

Hermawan Kartajaya  4:08  
it? Augmented human is a human that is heavily influenced by the technology, in thinking, in feeling, in making friends, in socialising, in making decisions, and in buying, so that's just a very different customer, a new breadth of customer. It

Ben Walker  4:32  
sounds very futuristic. Yeah, is it that you're referring to humans actually using AI as a way of purchasing goods, when we talk a lot on this show, we've have talked a lot on this show, using AI as a well, of as a way of selling goods to customers, but is the augmented human doing that in reverse, using AI as a way of finding and purchasing goods,

Hermawan Kartajaya  4:55  
that's why if the customer is changing because they. Came now augmented human, so how is the marketers? Masters can have to change themselves to be augmented human also, and using the same technology also. But before using the technology, they must understand how the customer is using the technology. When they understand how the customers are using the technology, say, will they know how to use the same technology? Also, how to lead the customer's mind?

Ben Walker  5:31  
Do you think marketers do grasp that as a rule yet? How this augmented human is using the technology to make purchases.

Hermawan Kartajaya  5:40  
Augmented human is is enhanced human, so we must enhance our capability. Otherwise, we will be replaced by the technology. If you do only productivity improvement, professionalism, and management, what I call PIPM, in another book, not in this book, in entrepreneurial marketing, because I've been co-authoring and becoming the thought leader of 14 titles of Philip Quarter. I mentioned that you cannot only base your action based on productivity, improvement, professionalism, and management. PIPM will be replaced by technology easily, but you have to become creative, innovative entrepreneurship, and leadership, especially leadership. How to lead the customer's mind by using the technology?

Ben Walker  6:34  
Just want to unpack this a little bit. You're saying if you focus on the traditional strengths of marketing and marketing leadership, you will disappear.

Hermawan Kartajaya  6:41  
The traditional leadership is how you lead the behaviour, how to lead the behaviour of other people, right? Leaders not only lead the subordinates, what, but other people also, and the customers are the people. You cannot control your customer because customer is your not, you're not subordinate. So now you don't need the behaviour, but you need the cognitive cognition, the thinking, because the thinking is the starting point before they make the making decision,

Ben Walker  7:16  
and that is a massive shift, though, isn't it, to change your, your, your way you show up as a leader to try and lead, changing leading behaviours to trying to understand and lead people's cognition. That is a massive shift that marketing is got to make.

Hermawan Kartajaya  7:30  
Sure, sure, sure, sure. That's why now is the big shift in marketing. You don't go to the behavioural of the customer, but you must start from the thinking from the cognitive thing, the cognitive side, because the cognitive side is the starting point before making decisions.

Ben Walker  7:53  
So, as people get to grips with this, in the, say, let's say the next 12 months, the next 18 months, the leaders that do get to grips with that, what sort of changes will that will present themselves, do you think, in the industry and in the way that people lead because of the way they're getting to grips with this new paradigm?

Hermawan Kartajaya  8:10  
Yeah, so first I think we have to understand the customer, the mind how the mind works, from the attention brain to social brain to reward brain. After you understand the type of the brain, the attention brain, social brain, and reward brain. And then you do the four action: how you connect with the brain, and how you educate, and you convince, and finally you reinforce the customer's mind, so they will be loyal to you.

Ben Walker  8:46  
Chris Daly, it's a massive shift. No pressure. Instead of leading every Monday morning, every Thursday afternoon to change the behaviours or improve the behaviours of your people that work for you, you've got to get into the mind of your customers, connect with their minds, and then get engaged their minds is a complete change for the way that marketing is going to be led, according to Professor Hermohan.

Chris Daly  9:07  
I think absolutely, that is sort of the picks and the scale of change, and this is when humans' empathy and your emotional intelligence, and actually understanding from the customer's perspective how they will benefit from engaging, have a relationship with your brand or your product for the greater good, and that's why marketing is shifting far more into the centre ground, from being a support function to be really an engine of growth for revenue,

Ben Walker  9:35  
the skills or the behaviours, if you like, that Hermod is describing, you know, as I say, are a big shift from perhaps what we were doing 10 years ago, even five years ago. As someone whose job it is to sort of oversee the industry in the UK, do you see that there are the skills and the qualities in the industry at the moment to make that shift?

Chris Daly  9:56  
I think there's a definite willingness because it. If you don't, you will get left behind, and the AI disappear.

Ben Walker  10:03  
The

Chris Daly  10:05  
AI genie is out the bottle, and it's definitely not going to go back.

Ben Walker  10:08  
Yeah,

Chris Daly  10:08  
and I think in being able to anticipate your customer needs, you know, you're not only meeting them, which is, you know, you need to anticipate what's happening, and the pace of change is so fast that there needs to be so much encouragement for active learning, and also safe AI sandboxes, so you can test things out, and actually try and fail in a safe environment, so you learn from your mistakes and adapt things quickly, because that's how quickly the technology is changing.

Ben Walker  10:36  
Experimentation,

Hermawan Kartajaya  10:37  
experimentation

Ben Walker  10:38  
is going to be key to for marketers to learn this new skill set that is required,

Hermawan Kartajaya  10:43  
so now I think the job of marketers today is to try to try the AI, not to try but proven already, but to use the AI in a new way. How to influence the decision making of the customer as the augmented human

Ben Walker  11:04  
influencing through technology, humans using AI as a tool to influence their customers. I

Chris Daly  11:11  
think that's a real shift. It's treated regarding AI as being like a coworker and not to let AI dictate the pace, so marketers, I think, will become the technology orchestrators, teaching and steering the AI for the greater good, and understanding, so it really aligns with what the customer's needs are, but also recognising what your competitors are doing and how they use AI, so I think it's again, it is a shifting paradigm, but you've got to be open-minded towards it, and the whole element of command and control is completely changed to empowerment, because it needs to say people have been being brought up living with this technology naturally, so they're far more used to utilising

Ben Walker  11:58  
it. I'm going to unpack this a little bit, because you've had a pretty long and distinguished career in marketing, and in that time the art of leadership presumably has changed quite a lot, and you've seen it change, probably for yourself, you've seen it change for others that you've worked with. How open do you think, and you, what you're talking, we're talking about here is open-mindedness to new ideas. How open traditionally have you found marketing leaders to be to embrace new styles as the epochs changed, as the year has changed?

Chris Daly  12:30  
I think marketers have always had a creative gene in their body, so they are always quite open to change and adaption, but I think historically the leaders have always expected to know all the answers, and that has now changed, and it's absolutely perfect to not know all the answers, and as also it's absolutely perfect to acknowledge that maybe you're not quite up to speed with the latest technology, but Why don't you discuss that? Why don't you talk to those people who are probably better experienced, even in a period of months, as opposed to yourself, and I think it's that sense of self recognition that the concept of lifelong learning has never been more paramount, and I think it was identified during the pandemic, when everyone had to change their styles and ways of working, and that's just really continuing to this present day, and its leaders having the confidence, sense of humility, but also the I know trust and openness for everyone's in it together. You have a far more flatline team structure, as opposed to the hierarchical one of the past.

Ben Walker  13:35  
The great leader with all the answers is no more, nor should he or she be her mother, one. It's about lifelong learning, going out to colleagues and finding out what's going on, and knowing that you cannot know everything in this new age.

Hermawan Kartajaya  13:50  
Yeah, there are a lot of definitions of leadership, right, but I like one definition: C, D, E, M, L, change. Leaders must change, manage manager, not change, do not change. Number two is dream. Dream is about vision. Number three is about empowerment. You must empower to somebody to do it, otherwise you are not a leader. Number three is model. You must become a model for the other one, and then you must love, this is humanity, the human side, not the technology side. If you are talking about love and empowerment and model, that is humanity side, but change sometime technology can do it. So you must combine all that. So that's why, as I said to you, that I mentioned to you, that now today marketing leaders must lead, must lead, not manage the market, but lead the customer's mind. That's why we call it cognitive marketing. This is cognitive marketing, not AI marketing anymore, AI marketing. Think it's already discussed in Marketing 5.0 that you publish it.

Ben Walker  15:03  
Yeah, yes, we should say that we did publish an earlier book by Herman Weil and Philip, but a fantastic book, but we're there now with Wiley, great book too. CDML, Chris Change Dream Model Empower Love Mod Model, Empower and love, C D E M L, is that something that they're the qualities of a leader, a quality of a leader, according to Hermohan. All those innate qualities, are they things that people are sort of born with, or at least learn in very young age, or are there, in your view, things that can be taught?

Chris Daly  15:40  
I think it's a combination of

Speaker 1  15:41  
both.

Chris Daly  15:42  
I think sometimes your innate elements will probably determine whether you wish to become a leader, or we have that, that, that ambition, but actually that tells you that you, that's what you want to do. But how good you are is probably through experience and learning adaptability, but I don't know if there's a scientific split, where it's 30% innate and 70% learning experience. So, I think it's a combination of both, but what Haman was saying earlier on, I think it's the within the, it's the culture that leadership provides, and that's determined by your behaviours and your values, and this element, depending how professional you are, and that what that culture is looking like, that will deliver trust, and that's going to be the new definition of everything going forwards in this age of technology.

Ben Walker  16:30  
To get into that cognitive, that cognitive leadership part of that, Chris Daly says, is to enhance trust between you and the customer, to be able to lead the customer's mind, you've got to be able to foster trust in the customer, into you.

Hermawan Kartajaya  16:44  
Yes, in this technology era, so now sometime we are lacking of trust, so we are worried that everything that is broadcasting by technology is fake, not all fake, but we are worried because there are 3f number one is fragmented market is becoming fragmented, right, because of technology becoming small, small, small tribes, not segment anymore, we don't call it segment tribe, and then number two is filtered, the information is filtered by technology, so we don't know that is fake or true. And number three is customer becoming more frugal, more frugal, more cautious about something. It is the right choice or not because of the technology. So technology is one side is positive, and another site is, I don't know, we have to be cautious. Also,

Ben Walker  17:46  
it can be a great facilitator, Chris, but this testimony reveals it can actually make our job as marketers a lot harder for these reasons.

Chris Daly  17:53  
It can do, and I think this is when the importance of maintaining that brand front of mind positioning, and if you can get that emotional connection with your customers to your brand, and also it really demands additional transparency and honesty, and people do make mistakes, you know, and especially when things are moving so fast, and it's perfectly fine to admit you've made mistakes, and how you deal with it is probably as important as how you put measures in place to stop it happening again, and I think it's the importance of the brand, which really is marketers' bread and butter in this day and age.

Ben Walker  18:28  
It's interesting, you mentioned teams and the effect on people. Of course, a leader's job is to not lead the behaviours of his people, as we know that that change or her people, but but to foster a sense of team and to look after the people around him who or her that he is he or she is working with. How do you think teams themselves are going to be affected by these shifts? Because they're big shifts, not just for the leaders, but for the people who are working marketing departments, marketing agencies, day to day,

Chris Daly  19:01  
I think it's back to that sort of culture and that element of working together and making sure that everyone's fully aligned, and that goes up to that strategic position of market that everybody understands why they're doing what they're doing, in which direction everyone's pulling in, but also encouraging people to go and further develop themselves, do those training courses, listen to sort of the webinars to try and keep up to up to speed with the latest change in technology, and I think by teams, you know, communication, you know, all you've got to do is talk to each other, and I think sometimes whether it's a weekly check in or a monthly review, and really dovetailing how your activity impacts other aspects of the business, probably finance or the sales team, and it's really getting already to come together and sharing that intelligence and information.

Ben Walker  19:52  
We talked about experimentation, you've mentioned it yourself, about the ability to try and fail, the ability sometimes to make mistakes. Is part of this being able to convey that culture, that psychology to your teams, that we know this is big, we know it's changing, there will be errors, there will be mistakes, that's part of experimentation.

Chris Daly  20:12  
I think you absolutely right, it's not exactly celebrating failure, but it is celebrating the desire to test things to the limit, but also recognising you must test that, do that testing inside the sandbox. Do not do it on the internet, in the open internet, because you're exposing yourself and the business to a whole host of risks. So create that sandbox, and then test it to the nth degree. So, and be encouraged to do that. Absolutely,

Ben Walker  20:37  
that's interesting, isn't it? Test an experiment within clear guard rails, Hermo on,

Hermawan Kartajaya  20:43  
so when I used to teach my team in managing the technology, I call it managing the technology. There are two things that I have to tell them. Number one is use the technology, you must know how to use the technology, but number two, don't forget the human side, because the technology only supports, but you are the decision maker, you have to decide, you have to control the technology, so you will become the right augmented human, otherwise you will be controlled fully by technology. It

Ben Walker  21:23  
sounds like sometimes this requires you to have quite difficult conversations with teams.

Hermawan Kartajaya  21:28  
Yes, that is very difficult conversation. When they don't care about technology, it's wrong. You will be left behind by your competitor or your customer, even. But if you use technology and you leave everything to technology, you are wrong. Also, because there will be no differentiation at all. Differentiation is the core element of marketing to me, and the technology tries to make everything average, no differentiation anymore, because when you ask ChatGPT, they will tell you this is the popular thing this is the most people buy it, so if you listen to the recommendation of the ChatGPT, you will be wrong. There will be no good differentiation anymore, and the core for me in marketing is differentiation, positioning, differentiation, and branding. Brand must have differentiation. If you don't have any brand differentiation anymore, you are not a marketing guy.

Ben Walker  22:35  
It's interesting. There's a danger it could become quite a binary response from teams that they either eschew technology and say, I don't want to get involved with AI or use it, or they embrace it too fully and too ubiquitously and end up producing the same as the next agency or department along,

Chris Daly  22:53  
and that's why it's so important to have humans in the equation, and ultimately I think let the AI and the technology do the simple lifting, and do the in, do the sort of basics, but actually back to Amara's point about differentiation, that's where that human element comes in. But you've got to be have your social guidelines, have your empathy, and your emotional intelligence, which technology isn't designed to do at this moment in time, and I think that's how you make humans be more human, dare I say it, and encourage people to have confidence in those human traits while the machines do the heavy lifting in the background.

Ben Walker  23:31  
How do you test it, Hermoyan? How do you test this marketing behaviour, this marketing activity in the era of marketing 7.0 What are the metrics that we're looking for to find out that we're getting this balance right, this measure right? We're embracing technology, but not too much, where you know we're testing and experimenting, but within clear guardrails, and we're leading the customer, but we're also getting the customer to trust us. If you are talking about the next 12 months or 18 months, I'm not saying that we will have AGI, but still AI, but smarter AI

Hermawan Kartajaya  24:14  
when technology becomes smarter AI, so you will have to become smarter marketers, smarter augmented human, because my prediction in the next 12 months and 18 months the AI will be blended by any social media like Google Map will have AI, so you just need to talk to Google Map. Please lead me to Oxford Roads, so they will lead you directly. Now we have to see, and then see the direction, and everything, so AI will be attached, so will be smarter. All social media becoming smarter, and will it will be time dangerous if you, if we don't become smarter also. So we have to be smarter human in still controlling the technology, because if we don't control the technology, the technology is becoming wild, and we are competing with our competitors, like he said. So I have foresee in my previous book change competitor company and customer the 4c When the technology changing the landscape, if the competitor is smarter than you, so the customer will go to the smarter choice to your competitor.

Ben Walker  25:40  
Some people watch this, Chris. We've talked on this. This show is now, and it's probably maybe not everyone watching today has watched the show or listened to the show for its seven years in existence, but we've often come back to this issue of burnout over the years for marketers that they feel that are constantly in a race, no more so perhaps than the last two or three years, when AI has completely changed the game, some marketers will be looking at this and thinking, "Goodness me, I've first of all got to learn this technology, I've got to embrace it, but know where the limits are, and I've got to become a smarter human in the next 12 months. How do we get this into our marketing teams without them thinking too big a thing, too scary, and it's just going to burn me out?

Chris Daly  26:28  
I think it's a real case of humility and engagement, and actually allowing people to take a break. This whole always on demand, because there's a customer somewhere in the world that will be looking at your website or identifying that, and yes, the technology exists to the personalization of one. A market is a dream, but again, it needs to be managed properly. But also, you need to give people the head space to be able to step back and be human. Now, as I say, humans be more human, but also we need to have a bit of arrest and recuperation, because that also gives us the oxygen to be more creative, and at some stage, so you either be more flexible about people's working patterns, be more flexible. I mean, again, post-COVID, with hybrid working, the whole essence of walkabout management is really doesn't exist anymore, so you need to identify different ways of creating a positive learning culture through digital means, and it's the, again, it's being willing to evolve and change. You're

Ben Walker  27:30  
the paradise changed there as well, hasn't it? Because as a manager, when you're trying to improve, you're trying to foster a positive culture. One thing you do, you've always talked about, is how people interact with each other, so that people enjoy coming to work, they enjoy working with their colleagues, and so on and so forth. Now we're in a situation, we've got that technology out there, we'll put where there is a danger that people can actually be threatened and in fact undermined by an algorithm, by the technologies themselves. How do you foster a culture

Chris Daly  28:00  
where people feel empowered by this stuff rather than threatened by it, you should use the technology to either sit behind you to do the mundane heavy lifting work alongside you, but never let the technology get between you and the customer, and I think this is when you should treat AI as a co-worker and ultimately let it focus on doing what technology does, do the simple tasks, and let you, as a person, focus on those complex negotiations. Talk about that, you know, social engineering, and really get that empathy with your customers. And while you're recognising, you're looking at the data analysis, which is instantly you can do greater testing, but also make sure you're on the right path, because you're that strategic marketing message. So, I think it's a case of do not be afraid of it, and don't think it's not going to replace you, it's just going to do marketing, the mundane marketing tasks, while you get given the head space to do the more complex marketing tasks.

Ben Walker  28:58  
That's interesting, isn't it? Hano one, and you mean you referred to marketing, the marketing function, the business as the soul, the sort of human soul of a whole organisation, presumably you want to see that maintained. How do you do that when the landscape for it is becoming far more automated?

Hermawan Kartajaya  29:17  
Yeah, marketing is still the soul, the most important, because the top line marketing is top line, because we thought marketing business is nothing, no business anymore, because marketing is top line. But remember, finance is the bottom line. In another book, I quoted many books, Philip Quarter in Entrepreneurial Marketing, we mentioned that marketing is top line and bottom line is finance and operation is the centre line, the middle line, the most important. The soul must be reflected in all operational, so operational excellence is the soul of your brand. Actually, let's say Starbucks. Starbuck is the third place watering in coffee, so third place must be well reflected in all operational excellence of all Starbucks stores to reflect the positioning, differentiation, and branding of Starbucks. So operational excellence actually, so still the soul, but the soul must interact and collaborate with the other function in the business.

Ben Walker  30:26  
And how do you make that happen? You know, when the context is changing so much, the landscape is increasingly automated. Perhaps the direct human connections are fewer, although they should, as you said, be more enhanced. Isn't doesn't that pose a great risk to brand longevity,

Hermawan Kartajaya  30:45  
longevity, longevity, your brand is becoming stronger and stronger in the long time if you always anticipate the changes, so that's why I have foreseen that change competitor, customer company and customer, you have to anticipate what is the change driver that will affect your business landscape, right? The competitive landscape, and then you have to anticipate, and have you, you must have a new idea, new idea to anticipate that, but the PDB positioning differentiation branding must be still the same, like the third place for drinking coffee, still the third place, but they use AI more and more and more and more, but the third place is third place, that's why, sorry to say, Starbucks is still strong until now, because they maintain the third place, third place, and make the third place into the real, real thing in what I call marketing tactics, nine element of tactic for me, segmentation, targeting positioning, and differentiation, marketing mix, and selling, and print service process. To me, marketing is nine element, but the core is only PDP, positioning, differentiating, that's why PDP must be very, very important and very consistent in the long term, strategic, strategic point of view. Tactical, you can change, you can be a little bit flexible

Ben Walker  32:14  
when marketing department marketing agencies are trying to implement this technology, maintain their soul, but implement their technology to use it as the tool, the co-worker, the colleague. What are the most common mistakes that you've encountered?

Hermawan Kartajaya  32:28  
That common mistake is you are too human or you are too technology. Technology is the most important change driver. I admit it, but if you over-rely on the technology only. You forget about the human side, you will fail, because the customer is still human. The customer who really demands your offer is really human, still human. You also, the marketer must become still human, but enhance human, augmented woman, human, and more augmented, more augmented human, in anticipating the changes of the customer, but the customer is still human, remember it. So, the common mistake is to rely on technology or too human and ignore technology.

Ben Walker  33:18  
It's interesting, though. This is really interesting. This is, I think, this is the core of it, is that Chris, I'll put this to you, that the customer is still human, lest we forget we're using robots. We must remember we're not selling Chris daily to robots,

Chris Daly  33:36  
and I think you're absolutely right, and even with this technology, you have hallucinations, but also AI is now creating his own bias, and that's why it's so important to have that human element still maintained in that, but when you see, and that's why marketing is shifting away from it's not just clicks and likes, because you've got bots talking to other bots, pretending to people to be, and it is extraordinary, and that's why it's so important, so how do you then evolve? So now people have little kite marks to say this image has not been changed or doctored, or this is a genuine person. But then, of course, when does the machine start also imitating the kite marks? That's why you've always got to be on your metal, and also you've got to sort of prove and demonstrate and trust the fact that it is your talk to real genuine customers and providing them with it with a brand and a product that genuine helps them,

Ben Walker  34:25  
so what does it look like? Herman, in that with those with those lessons in mind, what does excellent execution look like now? When we go back to our businesses on Monday morning or after Easter, we're recording this just before the Easter weekend. We go back to our offices on Tuesday morning after Easter, and we're thinking we've listened to this show. What does excellent execution look like? What should we be aiming for in 2026

Hermawan Kartajaya  34:49  
Yes, you have to keep how to get attention from the customer, because it's very difficult to get attention now, because everything. Is automated, right? So, if you are not, you are boring message, so they will ignore your, your, your message. Number two, after that, after getting attention, you must go into the value proposition. You have to, you have to prove that your offer is better than your competitor or to the reference, the reference they recommended by AI, and and then after that you propose something that is concurrent, and then you lead the customer to action.

Ben Walker  35:39  
How do you line all this stuff, Chris, with the rest of the functions in the business. I mean, you, you, we talk about top line, you're at the cutting edge of the marketing department as a marketing department in a business, you know, probably the role of the CFO, the finance department, the bottom line, as Hermann calls it, hasn't changed. This stuff that Hermes is describing is very contemporary,

Chris Daly  36:01  
it really is, and when marketing becomes like the central nervous system of the business, in terms of growth and survival, because that's what's needed, and it's by influencing one thing that machines aren't that good at in a human context, so have your meetings with your chief finance officer, but also with the sales team, the divide or unification of sales and marketing as a functioning unit is even debatable to this day as well. But as long as you've got a strategic direction, then everyone can be aligned to support it. And as a marketer, you should really have networked throughout the business and know really well how each business section operates, so that you know your marketing activity, is it moving the dial or not, and have an open conversation, but on a regular basis. Don't wait for your annual appraisal, you know, because technology will be reporting with you. How is it going, and that level of customer engagement, and if you're not doing as you've always, you know, better, or you're not doing better than your competitors, then you're going to face dial situation.

Ben Walker  37:06  
Your central nervous system is a great analogy, but another good analogy is you're an early warning system. You can see the change probably before other departments in the business, to some degree. You part of your leadership is to lead those other parts of the business into the change,

Chris Daly  37:22  
and that's right. And there's always been a debate about marketing in the C suite or the boardroom. It is in there, it just uses boardroom language, because the boardroom is focused on risk. So, how do you reduce that element of risk, especially we as more regulatory marketing activity, whether it's GDPR or greenwashing or AI? This legislation is coming in. You've got the EU AI Act, and I think it's marketers being on top of this. So, don't let your legal team be writing the policy statement. It should be the marketers that should be doing it.

Ben Walker  37:51  
Do you think that companies get that as a rule, in your experience, that you know marketing isn't just a delivery function, it isn't the dreaded cost, just the cost centre, it is the central nervous system. It is the early warning system for business. It is an absolutely driver of growth and competitive advantage.

Hermawan Kartajaya  38:09  
If you want to become a successful company winning companies in the next age, I think the next year, or next two years, or next three years, you have to use the marketing sermon. Why do, yeah, for sure, for sure. This is the formula, how to win in the age of AI, right?

Ben Walker  38:28  
So we should buy a copy and give it to our CFO. That's a good piece of advice, but do buy a copy and do give your CFO a copy. People will be listening to this, they'll probably be quite optimistic by the app, by the conversation, they will see a role for the important role of the human to create that balance. Nevertheless, we do like to future gaze on this show a bit, and sometimes I can be accused of being a bit asking slightly pessimistic questions. So I'm going to lean into that, and I'm going to ask you, Chris, a slightly pessimistic question. We're at marketing 7.0 When we get to marketing 8.0 or 9.0 will one of these stages be a place where marketers themselves are no longer needed, and algorithms can sell to the consumer's algorithm, and they'll just trade between themselves. Marketers will no longer be needed in business.

Chris Daly  39:27  
I think they will always be needed, and not surprising, being the child intuitive marketing, but also marketing is the engine of growth. It brings together that brand value and that customer insight, and it facilitates the discussion, unlike anybody else, marketers do have a sense of creativity, but it's the only function that looks to the future and tries to anticipate your customer demands, as opposed to just meet them on a day-to-day basis. It may not be called marketing, I mean, nowadays the marketing role could be the chief innovation and customer experience. Well, that is the marketer, but I think. Think marketers having the confidence to say we're no longer in the glittery brochure department, we actually, by working with the sales team and talking to the CFO, so when you say I need a million pounds for market campaign, he will quietly show you the door, when you say give me a million, I'll give you 2 million back in eight months time, that's a, that's a, that's a more positive conversation, and the CFO will listen. It says, "Ah, let's work together, and that's where your infamous in comes in. And then you have all the assets and the tools to make that happen.

Ben Walker  40:31  
Marketers are always going to be needed. They may not be called marketers, but in order to make sure that they are still needed, they need to change their language. Great example here. Don't go to the CFO and ask him for a million pounds, so that he can give you, or she can give you a million, and they'll get 2 million back.

Hermawan Kartajaya  40:47  
That's why I always say that marketing is very important, because marketing is the top liner, right? If you don't use marketing, you don't have the top line. If you don't have the top line, you don't have the bottom line. What is the result, but remember the centre line, the middle line is operation. So, you must have operational excellence, and operation excellent reflect the brand, the corporate brand, the product brand. It depends on the operation excellent, how you operate, the strategy that you are making in the marketing, and then the finance will see the result.

Ben Walker  41:26  
I'm asking you for a bit of future gazing now. Irma, one marketing seven point no, off camera, before the show, you dropped a hint that there would be a marketing 8.0 book before 2030 I believe you're probably

Hermawan Kartajaya  41:42  
for 2030 Yeah,

Ben Walker  41:43  
it will be. It will be coming in

Hermawan Kartajaya  41:45  
8.0

Ben Walker  41:46  
8.0 We're looking forward to that. So I'm going to ask you to preempt it and look towards, yeah, look towards 2030 How do you foresee this augmented human mind, the augmented human reshaping the relationship between brand and consumer, not today, but in four years' time.

Hermawan Kartajaya  42:05  
So, let me start with marketing 1.0 We started with marketing 3.0 right? But in marketing mind 3.0 15 years ago, we mentioned about marketing 1.0 It is about the product focus. If you only sell the product, the product is very important, that you are marketing 1.0 but marketing 2.0 about satisfy the customer. Customer satisfaction is everything, whether your product is good or not, for sure the product must be good. Marketing 3.0 is about human spirit, when you recognise that customers are having not only mind and heart, but also spirit. Meaning is very important. 4.0 about internet AI is about 5.0 6.0 immersion about customer experience, and 7.0 is about cognitive marketing, and 8.0 back to marketing, 3.0 actually marketing for good marketing for SDG, because SDG is about 17 principles, and I summarise this into 5p only impact, what we call impact, it's people marketing for people, marketing must be good for people, marketing for prosperity, not only for the profit of the company, marketing for planet to ruin the planet, marketing for peace to make war, and marketing for partnership. Don't do it by yourself, say the 5b So that's why we form World Marketing Council for marketing for good. So the conclusion of marketing use technology will use any technology, but must be good, good for 5p

Ben Walker  43:50  
So it's interesting. So it's about we get to grips with it in 7.0 understand the balance, how we be the humans in the loop, and by 8.0 we're using that relationship as marketing for good, as we spoke about Chris Daly, and marketing 3.0 That sounds to me like a positive prospectus.

Chris Daly  44:09  
I think it absolutely is, and that's why marketing is here to stay. And actually, and I think it does make the difference, and it does move the dial, but also you've got to be professional in the way you do it, and have those ethics and trust. Herman had talked about the spirit, that emotional connection, and so we must always bear in mind we need to be customer centric.

Ben Walker  44:29  
What legacy do you hope to leave for the next generation of marketers? Chris,

Chris Daly  44:34  
that marketing to be recognised for the impact that it has, that it remains its customer centricity, but also its human side and actually to really drive the professionalism to help business be successful and for the greater good of society.

Hermawan Kartajaya  44:50  
Hello, all. Number one is marketing is only top line, you must collaborate with finance and operation, especially operational excellent is the soul of. Marketing number two is marketing for good.

Ben Walker  45:02  
Hermo on Chris. Thank you very much indeed.

Hermawan Kartajaya  45:05  
Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Karen Barnett  45:11  
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