Episode 67: How to secure talent through transparency

27 October 2022

Inside Catalyst Issue 4 2022

This podcast will:

Explore the new issue of Catalyst magazine
Reveal how companies like CrossFit are fostering a customer culture
Show how employers can secure talent through transparency and authenticity.

Sophie Peterson 00:03

Welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast. The contents and views expressed by individuals in the CIM Marketing Podcast are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the companies they work for. We hope you enjoy the episode.

Ben Walker 00:18

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the CIM Marketing Podcast we have with us today a golden great, the fantastic. Morag Cuddeford-Jones right, editor of CIMs membership magazine Catalyst. We're also joined today by a very special guest from a huge brand glass door, you will know if you've ever looked for a job and you'll get their emails and checked their ratings of employers. And this is Jill cotton, who is a career trends expert, Jill, how are you?

Jill Cotton 00:48

Very well, thanks very much for having me.

Ben Walker 00:50

We'll be joining Jill in a little bit later to talk about some career trends in the sector and recruitment of marketers but first we will be with Morag to talk about the latest super sore away issue of catalyst. How are you Morag?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 01:07

I am very well but I'm always so much better for your introductions. I Potter along through my daily life. And then I get an introduction from Ben Walker. And I feel like I'm on top of the world.

Ben Walker 01:16

be interested to hear from you today about what is in the latest magazine, which by the way should be appearing on your doormats any day now if it hasn't already. Another year goes by Morag. Another quarter goes by another magazine goes by what can we look forward to in this one?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 01:34

Oh, so much so much. I was dithering over what I was going to call this edition. You know, I you know me I like to I like to give my editions some kind of title and theme. And I sort of looked at the rants, the idea of New Horizons. And then I came up with the thought that maybe old problems, new solutions, because I was thinking, Is there anything new under the sun in marketing? And actually, there is there are some, there are some core ideas that we really need to understand and stick to. But do we have to do them all the same way all the time? Absolutely not. And I think that's what this edition is about. It's about finding new angles, new ideas, new solutions. And I was really excited because when I put it together, it felt really positive. It felt like it was really vibrant. Like there were lots of interesting angles out there. And lots of stuff I hadn't heard of. I mean, I had to go really go learning and go digging to try and find out a bit more about what our contributors were bringing to us this edition. And it also made a bit of a change from the previous edition where I was just furious all the time. Sure, yes.

Ben Walker 02:41

It was hard to find solutions to problems, whether they be old or news, what sort of examples Did you find?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 02:47

So for example, if you take our cover story, the wellness wave editor at large, Lucy Handley explored the whole wellness trend. And this is far more than you know, bogus supplements and bogus claims. This is really holistic lifestyle and brands getting involved and saying, we're not just going to take one little bit of your life, your nutrition, or we're not going to take a yoga pant and make that a bit funkier we're going to take your whole lifestyle by the hand, and we're going to get involved and we're going to take you with us and that's going to be about events that's going to be about being with you all during the day, whether that's we're on your social, whether you're you're becoming as a consumer part of that club, and when we talk to brands, wider brands outside the wellness industry, and they are often saying things like, Oh, we're going to be your partner, we're going to build a relationship with you. You're selling me toothpaste, there is a big difference between you know, being the Instagram real that I look at when I get up and that inspires me It inspires me not to eat donut for breakfast, I'm gonna go for birch muesli instead, I'm gonna feel boosted I'm gonna have my own pocket Ben Walker talking me through the day and boiling me up. And I think that really is a true exposition of when they're talking about brands being in a relationship with our customers, rather than just going I'm in a relationship with you, and you're not descending into space.

Ben Walker 04:14

How do you distinguish a wellness wave a club, or even a cult, dare I say be provocative from a bunch of fake influencers who make money just by giving you slightly cheesy or useless wellness tips.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 04:31

I wonder if it's the difference is how it makes you feel. So you look at the Wellness influencers, and it's all about how they feel it's all about how they look. And we all know we've seen behind the curtain to Wizard of Oz land Haven't we we've seen the ring lights and the extra thick makeup and this particular angles that makes everyone that like they've got a flat tummy. Things like CrossFit. If you talk to someone who's pot and you said it's like a cult if you've talked to anyone who's in CrossFit, you know they will read Totally admit, it feels almost like a cult because of the devotion because of what they get out of it. And we talk about brand advocacy, for example, and you could not find stronger advocates than people who talk about CrossFit. It's a community with the people that they're there with. You know, you're you're generating massive endorphin boosts, and they come out of it in soused, energised and the or maybe that's just exercise, would we get the same thing out of financial brand? Well, actually, I can argue that you might, because if you think about how that impacts your life, particularly just now, with the financial markets being the way they are up and down, like a roller coaster, you want someone who is not going to make you feel like you're punching the air, when you're coming out of the building, at least that you're more secure, that you're looked after that you have a future with this brand, and that they're going to work with you. So the wellness wave Yes, is about you know, those those those feel good hormones and, and looking good and everything else, but it's about making the customer feel so much better in themselves. That happens to be about fitness. But I would argue it can be about anything cool.

Ben Walker 06:13

It really means a culture doesn't it. So it's not a negative word, it's become a negative. But if you're if you're building a culture with your customer, then you're doing something very right as a marketing person, what else is in the magazine this time?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 06:25

Well, if you're going to be building a culture with your customer, you've got to build a culture with your employee. And we have a lot actually in this issue about employees from the round table, right through to how you determine you know, personality profiling, sometimes, again, that can seem a little bit woowoo, can't it we've we've all had our personality profiles done. And you're like, Well, I'm not entirely sure if this really is me. But if not, can colour words, for example, explains that by using, like the colour coding system, like a shorthand to explain, not what people are, and not to chuck them in a blue box, or an orange box or whatever, but to find out perhaps about their dominant traits, and their less dominant traits, the things that they're absolutely excelling at, and the things that they need support with. So I couldn't begin to tell you which colour was which I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you all read the article first. But, you know, say someone is blue. And that has a particular trait of I don't know, strong logical leadership, for example. But then maybe they have undertones of, of quite weak, orange perhaps that maybe that's not gregarious, or maybe that's less adept at social skills. That doesn't mean that we only put that person into a strong logical leadership role. It means that they will be very comfortable there. But equally, we have to work with them and help them to either develop those traits or support them with a team and people who are stronger in those traits. So I found it really interesting that, you know, building, if you want to think who is a marketer, we talk about the art and science of marketing a lot, don't we? And we tend to put people in buckets. Are you a data analyst? Are you in the Geek Squad? Or are you in the creative squad, where you're literally, you know, gesticulating all day, and drawing thought bubbles on whiteboards and things like this. So I think we shouldn't be thinking about people in sort of binary ways anymore. Everyone's a little bit of both. And we get the best out of people when we understand how and why they're a little bit of all these things, and how we can then get the most out of all those traits.

Ben Walker 08:31

But recruitment and up like profiling leads us neatly into our guests today. But we before we introduced Jill, you wrote a little bit in your column about the need to be a little bit better be a bit more switched on with the way we recruit and handle young people in our sector.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 08:49

Absolutely. I mean, I just need my own personal experience. I currently owner, an 18 year old and a 14 year old at home. And you think back to when you were with your own parents, and you go, Oh, you don't understand me. You don't understand me. And then I swore when I held that tiny bundle, I wouldn't be the one who didn't understand them. I'd keep up with trends. Do I ever? I've no idea. They are a totally different species to me. And I think understanding when we say young people coming into the workforce, they're not younger versions of us. They have massively different expectations, massively different cultural influences, different desires, different goals, and we can't be stuck in aspects.

Ben Walker 09:31

But it does make it fiendishly difficult, doesn't it Jill Cotton, I should say the career trends expert E M. e a glass door, it does make it fiendishly difficult. JL doesn't it? If we are trying to recruit this younger talent, but we don't understand the younger talent.

Jill Cotton 09:50

That's absolutely true. But the key here is for employees to actually listen to their employees. And the way to do that is by creating a culture of transparent Seeing within your workplace. And creating a truly transparent culture is actually really hard. It's really difficult for businesses, business owners, companies, whatever size they are to truly open up. But it's only when you have that safe space where you are open and honest about what it is that you want, what your vision is for the company, what it is that you want from your workforce, that your workforce really then can trust you and in return can open up about what it is that they want and need. And what we're seeing a lot more of now at the moment is there's this big gap between what companies think they're workers one, and actually what it is that employers want and need. And this is really kind of hyped up in the last few years. But we find it's, it's employers who do use transparency at the heart of what they do. Not only do they listen to their employees, but they actually action and deliver upon what it is that those around them want to be supported.

Ben Walker 11:08

There are three categories broadly, there are those who don't listen, chance, there are those that do listen, but don't action. And then I'm guessing this is the rarest of the three groups, those that do listen and do action. And that's the way to fill this gap that you're talking of.

Jill Cotton 11:25

That's right. And it's hard. Like all of this is hard. It's difficult. The world of work is completely up turns in the last few years, what companies saw is their future has completely changed and how employees saw their world of work has completely changed as well. But we are now two years beyond the pandemic. And we now are coming to a point where both sides, both employees and employers need to recognise that changes have had to happen, and that we've had to adapt to those. And what we're seeing is that those companies who have leaned in who have listened to their employees, and who are better supporting them, they are the ones who have been more adaptable over the last couple of years. And they've responded to the change. And those are the companies who although hiring, still challenging. They're bringing in better, more talented people. And they're able to keep hold of their talent, too.

Ben Walker 12:22

And the more there's a big round table, which Jil featured in the magazine, and what are the sort of practices that you discovered which were able to close this gap between what employers think young talent needs and what young talent actually wants?

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 12:37

I think what was interesting is when you have businesses that sit and talk about purpose, you know, we're going to engage our staff around purpose, and we're going to build this employer brand and this culture. And I think the NSPCC said it best when when they they sort of highlighted the challenge that's in front of them. They said David Hamilton, who's the Director of Communications, he said, there are 180,000 other charities that do great work, their charitable, couldn't have a better embodiment of purpose. They're so what sets them apart in terms of working culture. So what do they have to address? What's the sort of network what's the sort of salary? Yes, that's important. But also what's what are the other benefits, I mean, we've got to talk about how I enjoy going to work as a benefit. So I think it was really important when they were talking about this, this fight for the talent, how it is they behave in trying to get hold of that talent and what they offer. It's my, you know, your marketing the marketers here, I find it really funny that we were having this discussion. And actually what we're talking about is pure marketing. You got to market yourself as a place to work,

Ben Walker 13:52

Are marketing companies that good at marketing themselves, Jill cotton in your experience.

Jill Cotton 13:58

They are pretty good. But I think a lot of people can be better. And actually more out there discussed about salaries important. We know that when people are looking for jobs, salary is their number one consideration, that salary can get you through the door can get you into the job, but it doesn't actually keep you happy in your role. Once you're in the role. There are three things that really keep people satisfied. It is the culture and values of the company, its access to learning and development. And it's the strength of the senior leadership. So and this is across all industries across all companies. And when I look at glass door I look today and there are 18,000 marketing jobs currently available in the UK. At this is a huge number of roles to fill. But what's even more interesting is that being a marketing and a marketing manager is a great job. So we produce list of the best jobs of the year. And actually marketing manager was number 10.

Ben Walker 15:04

This is for all job roles, not just marketing, job roles

Jill Cotton 15:07

of all job roles in the UK marketing manager comes in at number 10. And we look at pay, we look at satisfaction and work conditions. This means that if you are hiring in marketing, actually, you have this brilliant opportunity. It's a really attractive role. But in order to bring people in, yes, salary is important. But once they're in, what are you doing in order to keep this talent, it's the culture, it's the values of the company. If that person agrees with your culture, if they sign up to your values, if they can share with you that vision, then they will definitely be much more satisfied, and they will stay with you for the long term.

Ben Walker 15:47

Is the genuinely a disconnect between the values of the company and the values of the intake?

Jill Cotton 15:54

That's a great question. I would say that whilst there's actually quite a lot of myths about different age groups, and actually, there's a lot more crossover across age groups than what we would necessarily first thing so for example, when we look at something like flexibility, and you might think that it could be younger workers who want that flexibility, but actually our research shows, it's the much older workers, so workers in the 55 to 65 age bracket who really focus much more than anyone else and flexibility. So my advice to companies would be have have values, instil a culture that is true to you, and the way that you want to do business, and let other people come to you rather than trying to amend or adapt just to try to bring in a certain type of worker, because that will never fix it will always seem false. And it goes back to transparent culture. If you are trying to instil a transparent culture, you can't pretend to be, you know, having greater eco credentials, if you actually don't recycle anything in the office, or if you don't look at your carbon footprint, don't promise anything that you can't deliver me here time and time again, the thing that kind of turns employees away from their employers, is when people just don't live up to promises. And definitely in the last two years, the employee voice has grown, it's getting louder. People are more willing to actually call out companies, but the things that they are promising on, you know, when the Black Lives Matter movement you haven't seen two years ago, lots and lots of companies committed to increasing the policies around diversity and inclusion. Two years later, employees are demanding and saying, actually, what are we doing in order to make ourselves more inclusive? What are we doing in our hiring practices? What are we doing on a day to day basis? And I think because it is so difficult for companies to hire at the moment, it does give an advantage to employees. And that means that actually if your culture and values no longer aligned, or they don't live up to promises, then there are kind of other options out there for you.

Ben Walker 18:19

Yeah, that's that's fascinating, isn't it more and more work yourself. But when you are marketing yourself, make sure that marketing is authentic, which is of course, a golden lesson throughout the sector. Don't try to be something you're not, because that's just going to backfire.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 18:34

Absolutely. And I think it's very interesting when you have companies taking actions that you don't expect, and you see the reaction. So, for example, there's a big hoo ha blowing up in the news. At the moment. We're obviously talking. As we are at the moment in sort of mid October, there was a news story about shell sponsoring British Cycling. Yeah, you can imagine so, the people who get involved in cycling I've spoken to for example, marketers that Rafa for example, now you don't have to be a dyed in the wool cyclist to work at Rafa but it really does help. And you can tell you know, just as I was talking about the wellness way, you can tell when you speak to these people that the philosophy comes off them in waves, you know, they believe what they're doing. And British Cycling believes in what it's doing. And what it is doing is pedal power, fitness, endurance and excellence. And in our current climates, both physical and metaphorical, where oil comes into that, if I were an employee, and I am purely speculating, I would really be wondering right now, who made this decision? And why? Well, I can imagine there's a great sort of a great shock if the company you're working for suddenly does something that feels to quote, you know, the kids texts speak Oh, See out of character. So companies got to stay on this, you don't just you know, have some purposes and then do something daft think all the time.

Ben Walker 20:09

It's too easy to conflate to them in jail recruitment and retention, and one that I'm guessing is just as important to do, though, you may say, one is more important than the other, certain policies, certain practices get you past the recruitment bit. But something different gets you to the retention part,

Jill Cotton 20:27

I think the pipelines of both kind of retaining talent and bringing in new talent equal, we know that access to learning and development, once you're in a company keeps you in that company. And what's so brilliant about progressing someone through your company retaining that talent, is that they have this knowledge about the company that you don't need to teach again, every time that you hire a new person we've worked out, it cost you about 3000 pounds and takes you just shy of a month to hire someone, I would suggest that's probably slightly longer actually at the moment because it the hiring conditions are really tough. But it's really important that you keep having these new voices come into the company as well, and to throw new ideas to bring extra skills. And what we've actually found is that whilst it's really tough for hiring managers, and talent acquisition, to find exactly the right talent at the moment, they've been forced to look at kind of other pools of workers. So for example, it could be people with transferable skills. So yes, within the marketing industry, perhaps you haven't got the agency experience that was once required, or you don't have the degree that was once required, or that you've come from a different sector. So what actually now is the time to really consider those transferable skills and look at how they can complement the skills which will already exist within your workplace

Ben Walker 21:57

that does require quite a lot of flexible thinking on the part of the employer and my experience with HR departments is there can be a little bit too much rigidity at times regarding that sort of stuff, and to actually sort of break the formula to bring some cross sectoral candidates. And it's not necessarily easy for them cognitively to, to do that.

Jill Cotton 22:18

You're right, it's not easy to think outside the box that then we're talking about marketing here. And, you know, a lot of what marketing is, is thinking creatively thinking differently, it shows shining a different light on something COVID created this world where loads of jobs were carts, but then there was this pent up supply for demand. So for many companies, all of a sudden, there is this really big influx of demand, and there weren't the workers to kind of satisfy that. So that has left us with this really big gaping hole of workers, this is not going to change anytime soon, I can tell you now, it's going to be the same through 2023, it is going to be difficult to continue to hire good people. This means that hiring people, they need to be more creative, otherwise, they're going to be left behind.

Ben Walker 23:11

Benefits can employees think about the bounce they haven't thought about in the past.

Jill Cotton 23:17

And the types of benefits that we're looking at at the moment, it's parental leave kind of increased parental leave, but also carers leave. Looking at mental health and wellness giving access to support there. Lots of companies are moving towards unlimited paid time off as well rather than a set amount of holidays so that people can use that. But it actually doesn't matter what benefits you implement. If the company doesn't have the support system and structure in place to actually make them work. There is no point saying everyone can have a limited holiday. But you create a culture where everyone is, you know, working super long hours, and there isn't the encouragement to even take that holiday at all.

Ben Walker 24:06

That's interesting, isn't it more like that. There's one thing about writing down a bunch of benefits on paper, you are entitled to this, you can have this you can claim this. But unless the structure and the framework and the culture of the company makes those things viable. Those things that you write on paper are meaningless.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 24:24

I think what makes it easier for companies is if they can get involved in a collective effort, if you've got one company taking on board, this idea that they're going to have unlimited holidays, for example, or like Eve sleep shell Cheryl Calverley has been very forthcoming saying Not everyone's bank holidays meaningful for everyone in the company. They'd rather take a different day. And so they have a flexible Bank Holiday policy that works if everyone's bought into it. Now if a company is struggling to get on board or struggling to figure out how this might work, seeing lots of other companies doing the same thing can help And it's not in the current issue. It was in the one of the recent issues where we explored the four day work week, because this has become a movement and a whole bunch of companies mostly SMEs signed up to do a trial. And so right we won't cut pay, we will do four days, we will try and figure out how it works individually for us, whether that's a Monday, whether it's a pick your own whatever. And the results are in the results or in the judges votes have come through. And apparently, the overwhelming majority found it worked. Obviously, teething problems, some people are going, we're not getting the same productivity, some people go, I can't chop a day off my week, it's too stressful. Everyone else is in the office, and they've got questions they want to ask me. So clearly, it needs to be worked through. But when you have a movement, it becomes ideologically easier, especially for the higher ups who might be sceptical and be going, you know, what, when I was doing it 20 years ago, it was all fine. So I think, other movements, and I think, again, this is being driven by younger employees, who won't stand for the way it's always been done. And I think this is something also, just anecdotally, with with friends, not in marketing, we're noticing that and this isn't necessary, this isn't a bad thing. younger employees are standing up for themselves. They're saying, and why I have to work to 9pm tonight. I mean, I'll work extra hours if it's required. But if we're all just sitting here, because we're all trying to show off about how much work we're doing. I'm sorry, I have a knife, I have CrossFit to go to, or, or you know, I want this benefit or to you know, tell me what you're really doing about carbon, you know, didn't know I don't want any of this wishy washy stuff to show me the actual figures, or I need to take this time off for my mental health. It's not inconveniencing you. So I would like to take this time off here is a very honest discussion of why I'm doing it. I think they're much more open, much more willing to drive the things they need. And so I think even if there isn't a formal movement, like the four day work week experiment, you will come to see a general push towards a change in the way we're working.

Ben Walker 27:07

Jil, I mean, is it going fast enough? You said you don't see the market changing fundamentally in 2023? Do you see the behaviours and the practices of employers improving in 2023? So we can fill this gap that you refer to?

Jill Cotton 27:23

yeah, I do you see the practices of both employers and employees actually changing. So whilst it's still going to be difficult to hire, the fundamental thing that will change is about remote work. remote work is here to say the world of work has gone through this rapid transformation. But we have come to a stage now where it's actually going to be really difficult for us to go back. And companies now need to embrace hybrid and flexible working, it's scary, it feels new. Yes, we've kind of got that herd culture that Morag was talking about, well, other companies are doing it, perhaps we could do it to flexibility. When we've looked at this in our research, those who have flexibility are far far more satisfied in their roles, those blanks flexibility are twice as likely to be applying for a new job, twice as likely to be applied for a new job. But those who have flexibility, they say that they're more productive, their work life balance is better. But flexibility can mean a range of different things and hybrid working can meet meet a range of different things. It could be that you go to the office once a week, it could be that you go to the office once a month, it's about setting what flexibility means to you as a company, and again, what it is that your employees want. From me, we're not going to go back to a culture where everyone is required to be in the office nine to five, it's not those who are coming out of university. Now, it's not what they've been used to, is not what they're going to be accepting from the world of work as well. The only thing that we do need to be careful about, particularly when we look at younger workers, those entering the workforce for the first time, is making sure that there is still the support structures there so that they have access to mentorship so that they still can learn from those who have been who have that industry experience. We know that for young people, their biggest barrier to like getting the job that they want at the moment is lack of experience and lack of competence. Let's build that competence. And that can be done in a number of different ways. It doesn't necessarily need to be face to face in the office. But companies need to commit to being more flexible and considering how hybrid work

Ben Walker 29:47

and more like we might get better practice from companies and more realisation, more realism about what employees want, but we're not going to find an easier labour market. In 2023, we're going to have a tight labour market 23. And that's going to shape a lot of what we're going to be talking about, I would imagine, in 2023, as marketers and in catalysts. So, with your crystal ball, what do you expect to be talking about next year beyond the war for talent, if that's not to hackneyed phrase,

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 30:21

beyond the war for talent, it's not a hackneyed phrase, I think I may well have used it in the magazine. Although Colin Lewis takes up, he's a CMO and Irish CMO, and a very big commentator on on talent. And he very much takes a take exception to the war on talent phrase, but I'll let people go and look into that themselves. What's next you're gonna hold I think it'd be interesting to see economically what it drives us to do what this I am fervently hoping that the current economic shenanigans are extreme, but short term, how those end up getting changed could be quite extreme, certainly for the conservative administration. So economically, it will be interesting how marketers do more with less, but you know, let's face it, whenever has that not been a perennial conversation, belt tightening, but following the Harvard Business reviews exhortation from 2010, that said, in a recession, you don't stop marketing, which is good news for us at that catalyst and the Chartered Institute of marketing. So um, so you know, you don't stop marketing. So I think, yes, we'll see a lot of new ways, creative ways, efficient ways, effective ways. Not following short termism, the temptation to go, right, I've spent this amount on advertising, I now need to recoup it almost immediately. And if I haven't, I failed. So we'll be looking at the value of things like the value of brand and how we hold our nerve, really, as marketers. And you know, that's a big question how you hold your nerve as a marketer, pretty much everything that's in marketing goes into that. So whether that's brands, whether that's metrics, whether that's data, we'll also be looking at things sustainability is going to be an ongoing conversation, the previous edition, readers will know that we focus quite heavily on sustainability. It was a it was a very big theme running through a lot of the articles. I think going forward, sustainability is going to be one of those things now that is always there. In the same way that digital is always there. We used to talk about digital as a separate thing in a shiny box of scariness and that digital, it's everywhere. It's everything we even say phygital for digital and physical was sustainability will be there. It's just part of the everyday conversation. It's part of our success. So yeah, it's going to be from a journalistic perspective, it's going to be a really interesting year because we thought things changed fast with COVID. Now we're seeing the fallout economically and sociologically, and everything else. Things are still gonna have to keep changing. We're not done. We'll be good to see.

Ben Walker 32:53

We will be interesting to see they will have to keep changing, but I liked your call to arms that we must hold our nerve as marketers through 2020 and Jill cotton as recruiters. Jil, Morag, it's been fantastic to have you on the show. It's been incredibly illuminating. There's been some great tips and advice I think, particularly for employers who want to win this battle for talent or war for talent or whatever is the correct phrase nowadays for our need to find the best people to work with us in our sector. Jill cotton, Morag Cuddeford-Jones thank you very much indeed.

Morag Cuddeford-Jones 33:29

Thanks so much.

Ben Walker 33:30

Reminder before we go to the members that your magazine should be arriving on your doormat soon and if it hasn't already. And if you want to look at it digitally, you can find it on the My CIM digital content hub, which is available to all CIM members. And we'll see you on the CIM podcast again very soon.

Sophie Peterson 33:52

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